Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

If it's San Soo related, but you don't know where to put it...

Moderator: San Soo Sifu

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby LiveFree2Fight » Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:18 pm

Hey Captain,
I found this post-fight article written by Robert Resann. I have a follow up question at the end of this article.


Robert Resann wrote:From: Robert @TMI (rresann)
To: ALL
6/25/2001

The following was posted at the East Hills Forum
http://www.easthillskungfu.com/perl/wwwthreads.pl

It is the mainstream San Soo Forum. It is posted here so all of you can see it, as you need to be a member at East Hills to get inside to the "Public Forum," where issues relating to San Soo are discussed.


Gentlemen,

Why do so many of you take Sean's loss as a threat to you? Sean lost. TMI lost. The vast majority of you San Soo people out there wanted us to lose. You got your wish.

The Boys from Brazil, starting with the creative genius and physical talent of Helio Gracie, have been completely kicking the butt of Karate and Kung Fu practitioners for about seventy years. And Kung Fu guys have been getting their tails handed to them on TV for about 25 years. Starting with the annual show on ABC Sports of Aaron Banks World of Martial Arts, in the 70's, where Kung Fu fighters lost every fight to boxers, all usually in the first round, to the UFC where at least 3 San Soo people have fought and lost to grapplers. (In the World of Martial Arts telecasts, the Kung Fu contingent got additional concessions each of the years the competition was held, to where the Kung Fu guys did not wear gloves while the boxers did, and the Kung Fu guys could kick below the waist while the boxers didn't, etc... The boxers simply handed the Kung Fu guys sound thrashings each and every fight.)

Sean is just the latest to fall to a grappler. It is amazing the amount of internet coverage that this event has caused, but there are valuable lessons to be learned, from the $5000 private lesson Sean got from John Marsh last Sunday. And perhaps some lessons that we all think we already know can be understood more comprehensively, as we all analyze what nearly all of us consider to be the tremendous art and science of San Soo.

Lets start with some basic physics...

Take a Volkswagen, pop a souped up engine in it, tune it up perfectly, put the best gas in it, install all the latest gadgets and computerized equipment, the finest interior and safety belts and airbags. Make it the most up to date and mechanically perfect Volkswagen to ever have been put together.

It would all mean nothing when it gets hit head-on by an 18 wheel Mack Semi Truck! No matter how good of a Volkswagen it is.

Say what you will to dissociate what happened to us at TMI last Sunday from what you do as a San Soo practitioner. Run down Sean's abilities, if you feel you must. (Just know that NONE of the anti-TMI posters on this East Hills Forum have met Sean and worked with him.) Try to find excuses in his "lack" of years doing San Soo. Use any excuse or issue any criticism you want.

But in your quiet and private moments when you can be honest with yourself, maybe you might admit to yourself that even assuming (for the sake of argument) that Sean can hit real hard and kick like a mule, that he is strong and has tremendous endurance, that he might just have been the Volkswagen in the above example. By the way, whether you want to believe it or not, Sean is strong and does strike hard. He could pass the 1st Force Recon indoc requirements today (assuming his right arm was in working order), but the fact remains that Sean, compared to John Marsh, was the Volkswagen. A souped up Volkswagen, but to no avail.

Technique is not everything. In your quiet and private moments when you can be honest with yourself, think about a football player who has the absolute best technique of playing tackle that has ever been performed by any human in the history of football. If this man weighed only 155 pounds, then the reality is that he would NEVER play in the NFL. In fact if this man with the best technique in the history of football weighed 175 pounds or even 200 pounds, guess what? He would never be good enough to play in the NFL. The inferior but adequate technique of larger and talented men would prevail and secure the job as tackle.

You know this is true.

Size, strength, speed, power, quickness all matter. A good big man will beat a good small man almost every time. We are not talking a big slob versus a skilled smaller man. We are talking a big talented man vs. a smaller man.

---------------------------

There is a horrible and evil myth that is common in San Soo. The belief that size doesn't matter. It allows San Soo people to say and teach that a "petite woman" (to quote a recent post) could, if she had a good reason, cripple John Marsh (or someone like him).

I use the phrase "horrible and evil" because to have students believe this utter and complete nonsense can get them killed. There is NO petite woman on earth who has a reasonable chance of defeating John Marsh. In a quiet private time alone with nothing but your honesty, you know this is true.

There is a scene in the classic movie, The Wizard of Oz. As Dorothy is discovering that the Great and Powerful Wizard of Oz is nothing more than an imposing projection controlled by a man working the Wizard controls in a room off to the side, the "Wizard" says, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

With our smackdown last Sunday, I would have expected more gloating out there in the San Soo community. Instead, there is the expected ridicule and derision. (And concern that Grapplers don't respect San Soo. News flash. They never did.) But there seems to be a mild panic and a scramble to find answers on how to deal with a grappler. Because in your quiet times alone with nothing but your honesty, you know that you would not want to face John Marsh. That your San Soo, unless you are big, strong and very well experienced and trained, would, with respect to John Marsh, be just like the Wizard. You would like to "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" But you know in those quiet times that you must pay attention to the man behind the curtain. And he is a mere mortal.

Another myth is that since San Soo is for real fighting and not competition, that to add rules like no eye gouging and biting, as in the original UFCs, makes San Soo ineffective. I daresay that most street fights throughout the history of San Soo that have been won did not hinge on the act of biting or poking. Rules like not biting and eye gouging are a limitation to be sure. But everything else is available. San Soo allows a whole lot of things, does it not? Does the power of San Soo only lie in the ability to poke and bite? I think not. And in your quiet times alone with just your honesty, neither do you.

Anyway, take one of San Soo's petite females getting out of her car in a mall parking lot, and a pissed off John Marsh is coming at her with terminal intentions. She can bite and poke all she wants. I guarantee you that it will do no good. In your quiet time you know this to be true.

Here is a piece of information you do not know. Sean, while pushing Marsh's head away, to try and keep him from finishing him off, had his thumb accidentally go all the way to the first joint in Marsh's eye. Marsh's response? He moved his head. Big deal. Even if Sean had had intentions of trying to gouge his eyes, he could not as he had a house with arms on him. But with that being said, Marsh is one of those people who if you did poke his eye out, he would kill you as punishment. In your quiet time alone with your honesty, imagine fighting someone like that.

And in your quiet time you know that the most likely outcome if a motivated-by-bad-intentions Marsh was coming at you. You get out of your car, he is pissed and coming at you. How can you say that he will kick your butt in competition but that you will magically prevail in the street? In this street scenario he is ready and coming for you. The element of surprise is virtually gone. Remember, John Marsh is a professional fighter, a large, talented and extremely strong man. And he can hit and kick hard as well. You are not just facing a pure grappler. Not that the outcome would be any different if he was limited to just grappling. But in that parking lot he can do anything he knows how to do. He trains hard everyday. He fights almost every week.

San Soo people do not. We are advised by cross trainers like Jeff Frater, Chris McCune, and even Eric (ESANDY) Johnson, who know the power of grapplers that hard training is advisable. If you think that two hours a day, three or four days a week that the average dedicated San Soo practitioner spends practicing will prepare you for a professional fighter, then "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." The above named gentlemen, among many others, have been telling everyone what they already knew from experience about the Boys from Brazil.

But also note the following in your quiet private time when you are honest with yourself, that Mr. Frater, Mr. McCune and Mr. Johnson - with all their extensive training and hard, hard work - would not bet on themselves in a real street fight against a man like John Marsh. And they know their stuff. Do you doubt that they know a whole lot of grappling and are quite good at it? And they would avoid a street fight with Marsh if at all possible. Jeff and Chris are young men too. With all their skills they are too small to prevail over a Marsh. (Please note that in our forum disputes with Mr. Jeff Frater we did not say that what he said to do in a fight against a grappler was wrong. We were simply trying to make the point that at about 160 pounds, a San Soo fighter - or even another jiu jitsu based fighter - would get whooped-on in a street fight with John Marsh.) Very few people can be legitimate giant killers like Helio and Royce.

Size matters people. Sean was only half kidding when he made the comment about shotguns being invented for people like John Marsh. Man developed all weapons to overcome better opponents as well as to make victory over inferior opponents easier.

San Soo is a tool. It is not the ULTIMATE WEAPON. You have to use your body in a fight. San Soo doesn't fight for you. You use it. You use the principles and mechanics and techniques you have learned and practiced. But if you are a normal human being and you encounter a professional, highly trained fighter in the street who wants to kick your hind end into next week, or into eternity, then just like Sean last Father's Day, you, too, will be nothing more than a fly on the windshield of the car name John Marsh.

Treat an encounter with a Marsh type opponent like you would if you encountered an opponent with a knife or if you encountered multiple opponents.

Exit stage left. If you cannot run away, do your best. But don't count on making it home for dinner with the wife.

San Soo is a powerful tool that if needed by the vast, vast majority of us will be used against someone who is probably not a skilled professional. It is ideal for most of those situations.

Sean said that he would not trade the experience with Marsh for all the tea in China or all the Soccer balls in Brazil. We knew that size matters. The article of that name (Size Matters) was published on our website about two years ago. Our biggest mistake was not that we didn't believe it then when we published it, but that we didn't believe it enough.

Do not treat San Soo as anything more than what it is. An excellent tool. Don't tie your ego up with it having to be the ULTIMATE WEAPON that will defeat everything in all circumstances. To repeat, you are the one doing the fighting, not San Soo. If you feel the need to be able to defeat whomever you might have to go against, then start taking steroids and lifting weights for starters. Then train your ass off like Jeff and Chris and others do.

If you are not realistic about your abilities and think that San Soo will allow you to always prevail, you may not end up as lucky as Sean did with only a sprained elbow and a black eye.

Now assuming you are realistic about your abilities and want to improve your ground fighting skills, then take advantage of the knowledge of talented instructors out there in our San Soo community...

The argument that ground fighting is "in" San Soo may be true. But it was never taught to any large extent. No doubt Ron Gatewood is correct when he says that had Jimmy lived long enough to see the ascendancy of the Gracies that we would have been exposed to much more grappling and anti-grappling based techniques. But he didn't live long enough and we weren't.

Bottom line, you have to rely on folks such as the following for the information.

In the Inland Empire you have Dave Hopkins and Bill Vigil. You can find Jeff Frater at Bill Lasiter's school. Lari Beebe is out there too. Near the L.A. - Orange County border you have Bill Hulseys studio where you can find accomplished competitive grappler Luis Trasvina, as well as Eric Johnson and William Cannon.

I'm sure that there are more of these San Soo instructors who are quite competent at grappling. You can use this forum (East Hills) to network as you already do.

Here in the South Bay you can find the Gracies, the Machados and Professor Caique.

As an aside, if you want to drop by TMI and see a clear copy of the video and talk to someone who has been there, done that; if you might be interested in learning what strategies and such that Sean successfully used - as funny as that may sound, or just to talk about San Soo in general or specifics, you guys are welcome to get the information straight from the horses mouth.

This invite is genuine and sincere. We tend to do what we say.


I wonder what Robert Resann or Sean Scott would have done differently in preparation for this fight? What do they believe was lacking to make it successful; was it in princples, or JUST in techniques?
I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.
Thomas Jefferson
LiveFree2Fight
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:38 am

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby Captain America » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:01 am

.

Before SP Danny posted stuff on San Soo 2.0 a few years ago, and being subsequently being banned by Willard Ford for being extraordinarily obnoxious, Dan came to The Captain with questions about the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight in June of 2001. The following is the interaction between SP Danny and The Captain...




The following is a copy of the text conversation I had with Dan a few days ago - June 3 - 5, 2012

Hello,

I am a former practitioner of Kung Fu San Soo. I studied in 2000. I developed a great passion for this Art and wanted to dedicate my life to it, but certain things came up in my school that prevented me from continued study.
In addition, I remember the Sean Scott vs. John Marsh match when it happened and reading about the results on the TMI website and watching the fight and seeing the aftermath pictures. I realized the behavior of many San Soo practitioners (Masters and students) was absurd. I personally believed the TMI challenge fight was the best thing that could of happened to San Soo and the followers of San Soo.
I don't know anything about you or what rank you hold in the Art. I would like to ask you if you know what happened to Sean Scott? I actually developed respect for him for fighting John Marsh. Does he still study San Soo? Why was the TMI
website taken down?

I would appreciate any information.

Thank you

Dan


The TMI website was closed down when TMI closed down... April 2003.

The Marsh fight was in June 2001 almost two years before.
Most of the worthwhile content of the Close Quarters Combat Forum (TMI's Forum) has been republished on the pages of the AmericanSanSoo.net forum. You can see by the dates of the many many quoted posts (from the late 1990s to the early 2000s). Also a lot of history of TMI and also the fight can be found in the Forum.

Many San Soo studios were already incorporating grappling into their curricula way prior to the "fight" between Marsh and Scott. I wouldn't make the claim that that fight was pivotal in San Soo development. I certainly wouldn't make the claim that the defeat (non-contest?) was the best thing that could have happened to San Soo, if for no other reason than the fact that TMI was most certainly and absolutely not looked upon as being anywhere close to "mainstream" San Soo. The Black Sheep of San Soo maybe, but certainly not considered a representative of San Soo in general.

As to Sean Scott's whereabouts... I haven't seen or communicated with him since late 2002. I think Robert saw him at the studio until the closure in April, 2003.

John Marsh came to the Yardhouse in Long Beach later in the year after the fight and talked to Big Dave who was a student at TMI and the Cooler of the Bouncer staff at that Yardhouse and expressed his respect for Sean stepping up to the plate to fight him, with a difference of about 80 pounds and loads of ring experience that he (Marsh) brought to the encounter...

Steve

Hello Steve,

Thank you. I appreciate it.

I should've been more detailed about the fight being the best thing to happen to San Soo practitioners. I believe the fight showed the Masters and students of San Soo that it is not the ultimate martial art. I don't know anything about Sean Scott, but I believe he was very knowledgeable and proficient in San Soo at the time he fought John Marsh.

I don't know you personally or your feelings about San Soo, but I truly felt in 2000 that San Soo was the ultimate martial art (my instructor helped spread that feeling around the school). However, now I know I was naive. Many of the things I have seen San Soo Masters do on youtube is just laughable, not realistic, and certainly not something I would recommend anybody do in a fight (you're probably thinking "hey man, it's just a demo for people to see"). Also, I wouldn't recommend anybody I know to join any San Soo school.

There is a story I have come across that makes me question the integrity of any San Soo Master that claims the story is true. The story is a group of San Soo "fighters" was going to fight another group of martial artists. The San Soo "fighters" claim the other martial artists "did not want to fight anymore" after a sparring session. If the article is true (word for word) it certainly does not make Jimmy H. Woo look good at all. It makes him look like a person that will not stick to his convictions. I think the only reason this article was put out and was never questioned is due to the fact the internet didn't exist (so people couldn't communicate around the world and verify the information with other parties).

Anyway, thank you.

Dan



In my last message there was a typo. I meant to type that the article "does not" make Jimmy H. Woo look good at all. The article was written after he died (in 1995) so it makes sense that article was able to be put out (Jimmy can't do anything if he is dead).


The supposed encounter between the Thai boxers and the San Soo guys DID NOT ever take place. Jimmy was not involved. Jimmy was not there, as it didn't happen. The story is a fabrication of Larry Wikel. Several San Soo folks trained for the possible event, but it never actually occurred. The article you may have read or heard people talk about is untrue. It's a great story, with only an element of truth, but it is only that - a story.

Again, the Marsh debacle did not teach San Soo people anything. Grappling had already been taught for years in several San Soo schools, because of the influence of the UFC which started in 1993. Your perception of that fight having changed San Soo is inaccurate.

My fighting background was simply a boxing/wrestling one, with numerous fights, some being life and death style encounters back in Nam. I ran into TMI and Robert/Sean at Camp Pendleton back in 1998.

The mechanics and strategy and tactics and mindset of the San Soo taught by TMI for 1st Force Recon and Battalion Recon was highly enjoyed, and applicable to a Marine's job description and armament and use of force policy. That is why TMI was invited to Camp Pendleton about a hundred times over a three year period to provide supplemental close quarter combat instruction. (This was prior to the implementation in 2001 of the Marine Martial Arts program nationwide.)

The skills and experience that I brought to the table meshed exquisitely with what was being taught by TMI, and brought my execution of lethal combat to a higher level. (Robert and I remain very good friends to this day.)

If you have read any of the ASS forum, you will see that we agree wholeheartedly that much/most of the videos on youtube is garbage and will get you hurt in the street.

I'm sure that I've been around for several decades longer than you, and my experience leads me to the conclusion that the meat and potatoes of San Soo is superb for real world combat when a projectile weapon or bomb ain't handy to dispatch the enemy.

Steve

Hello Steve,

Thank you for replying back and providing more information. Also, thank you for serving in our Armed Forces.

What do you mean by "meat and potatoes of San Soo." Do you mean the dirty tactics such as eye gouges, biting, groin strikes, hair and ear pulling, groin grabbing, foot stomping, etc. If so, ANYBODY can do those tactics in a fight. The best Combat Sport/Martial Art fighters (Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, MMA fighters, Muay Thai, San Shou, etc) and are able to do those tactics in a street fight and it wouldn't surprise me if they could do them better than traditional martial artists (Kung Fu San Soo practitioners, Wing Chun, Shotokan Karate, Tang Soo Do, Japanese Jiu Jitsu guys, etc).

Or is the "meat and potatoes of San Soo" the "horse" stances, "windmill" blocks, one-knuckle punches, mindset to attack first, etc. If so, it sure didn't work well for Sean Scott.
With all due respect, I understand there was a weight and ring experience between John and Sean, but the environment that John and Sean fought in was absolutely perfect to see if San Soo would work in a fight against a larger/stronger/tough man. The room was empty from furniture, ground clear and clean, and no one was going to interfere and gang up on one or the other, etc. This environment would be a person's DREAM to conduct a fight that is life or death!

I can just picture the argument San Soo Masters would make to argue with me such as "a San Soo guy would grab a weapon to use against a guy like John Marsh" or "a San Soo guy would "deceive" a guy like John Marsh." Well for crying out loud, John Marsh could easily do the same things. It doesn't take a genius to understand and do dirty tactics. It certainly doesn't take a genius to understand the illogical argument made by many traditional martial artists and even certain reality based self-defense systems that "just because a person is good in the ring, his fighting system won't work well in the street" or "it won't work in the ring, but it will work great in the street." Guys like Chuck Liddell and Anderson Silva are not going to be taken out easily by San Soo or any other traditional martial artists. PLEASE DO NOT THINK I AM A "DIE HARD" MMA FAN. I DO NOT WATCH MMA.

Thank you for reading this message. You have shown me respect and I hope you understand I only mean to show you respect.

Dan

Another thing I forgot to ask. Do you think Sean and Robert still have confidence in Kung Fu San Soo Finger Locks working in a street fight after the John Marsh challenge? I remember reading an article in Black Belt Magazine with the guys from TMI explaining how finger locks "force a standing adversary onto his toes, thereby destroying his ability to resist, or to take him to the ground." This line in quotations comes straight from the article and there is a reason I chose to use this line.

I talked to a guy that has participated in MMA fights. I have never seen him fight, because I do not watch MMA. He agreed with me that one thing MMA, UFC, etc. has shown the world is the takedowns, throws, joint manipulations (leg locks, arm locks, etc.), and leverages will actually work on a RESISTING opponent.


Let me rephrase part of the last message.

One thing the MMA, UFC, etc. has shown the martial arts world is the REALISTIC and PRACTICAL and EFFECTIVE throws, takedowns, joint manipulations, and leverages that will work on a RESISTING opponent. I have seen too many throws, takedowns, joint manipulations, and leverages in the traditional martials arts (certainly in Kung Fu San Soo) that are not realistic in a street fight.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Steve,

Thank you for replying back and providing more information. Also, thank you for serving in our Armed Forces.

What do you mean by "meat and potatoes of San Soo." Do you mean the dirty tactics such as eye gouges, biting, groin strikes, hair and ear pulling, groin grabbing, foot stomping, etc. If so, ANYBODY can do those tactics in a fight. The best Combat Sport/Martial Art fighters (Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, MMA fighters, Muay Thai, San Shou, etc) and are able to do those tactics in a street fight and it wouldn't surprise me if they could do them better than traditional martial artists (Kung Fu San Soo practitioners, Wing Chun, Shotokan Karate, Tang Soo Do, Japanese Jiu Jitsu guys, etc).

----Nope... Those are all good things if the opportunity presents itself, but no to your question...

Or is the "meat and potatoes of San Soo" the "horse" stances, "windmill" blocks, one-knuckle punches, mindset to attack first, etc. If so, it sure didn't work well for Sean Scott.

----Nope, again... All good stuff, in the right circumstances, but again, no to your question...


By "meat and potatoes" I mean Strikes... using punches, kicks, elbows, knees, head butts, forearms, shoulders, etc, etc. All manner of strikes.

By "meat and potatoes" I am referring to blunt force trauma! (Weapons simply allow a more powerful application of both the impact of the blunt force or the penetration of the blunt force, or facilitate both of the above.)




With all due respect, I understand there was a weight and ring experience between John and Sean, but the environment that John and Sean fought in was absolutely perfect to see if San Soo would work in a fight against a larger/stronger/tough man. The room was empty from furniture, ground clear and clean, and no one was going to interfere and gang up on one or the other, etc. This environment would be a person's DREAM to conduct a fight that is life or death!

----Actually the environment you describe for a life and death encounter is not the "DREAM" of any warrior I've fought alongside or any half-ass reasonable San Soo practitioner, or any of my many acquaintances in other styles, including MMA buddies. (By the way, I OFTEN watch MMA contests...) I'm a bigger guy -- about 6'2" and 230 pounds, but I'm way too old (close to 70) to engage in MMA style encounters for fun. And in the event of a life and death situation, been there, done that... Don't want to be there again. It ain't all that much fun. (And I am always armed with at least an edged weapon just in case...)

Really? If you find yourself in a life and death fight with no restart key, since this ain't no frickin' video game, you REALLY want a fair fight??? To each his own. None of my real world compatriots who HAVE found themselves in a REAL life and death situation, whether in a war, or in the street, want a FAIR fight...

For us, your scenario is a nightmare, not a "DREAM."


I can just picture the argument San Soo Masters would make to argue with me such as "a San Soo guy would grab a weapon to use against a guy like John Marsh" or "a San Soo guy would "deceive" a guy like John Marsh." Well for crying out loud, John Marsh could easily do the same things. It doesn't take a genius to understand and do dirty tactics. It certainly doesn't take a genius to understand the illogical argument made by many traditional martial artists and even certain reality based self-defense systems that "just because a person is good in the ring, his fighting system won't work well in the street" or "it won't work in the ring, but it will work great in the street." Guys like Chuck Liddell and Anderson Silva are not going to be taken out easily by San Soo or any other traditional martial artists. PLEASE DO NOT THINK I AM A "DIE HARD" MMA FAN. I DO NOT WATCH MMA.

---- Again, I DO watch MMA regularly, as well as boxing, and those predominantly crappy videos of San Soo and other martial arts styles on Youtube. I think you definitely under-appreciate the difference between a dojo dummy (one of the variations of a weekend athlete) and a professional athlete.

Sean had next to no experience in any kind of fight. To his credit he put it all on the line and tried, but he didn't utilize his best athletic and San Soo strengths. He chose a poor strategy to begin the fight (except where he tried to attack.) Both combatants went off at exactly the same time -- watching the original video frame by frame shows that both went off at exactly the same time... But he had virtually NO experience... and found himself against a PROFESSIONAL fighter who trains many hours per day, 5 or 6 days a week. That is NOT an insignificant fact. If you discount that fact, you are grossly uninformed about athletics or hand to hand combat.



"but the environment that John and Sean fought in was absolutely perfect to see if San Soo would work in a fight against a larger/stronger/tough man."

----For the sake of this argument, let's assume that Sean had a ton of experience, or was a professional MMA guy also. Well, there is a reason that MMA and Boxing etc. have weight classes. A good big man will beat a small good man almost always. I never was taught at TMI that size, strength, speed and power do not matter... What balderdash would that be to preach that kind of garbage?!
True enough, a highly skilled and trained smaller man would have a real good chance to defeat a big guy who was untrained, but a moderately trained 155 pound 45 year old man in his first fight, will never be a match for a 32 year old, 235 pound, and highly experienced and highly trained professional.

This is not an excuse for the fact that Sean got his butt handed to him. It is simply stating what should be an obvious fact about reality. However most martial artists insist that none of that matters and go off saying the things that you rightly criticize them for saying.

The TMI fight fiasco in 2001, to repeat myself, did not change the world views of San Soo masters or students. The first UFC in 1993 began that process...

"I can just picture the argument San Soo Masters would make to argue with me such as "a San Soo guy would grab a weapon to use against a guy like John Marsh" or "a San Soo guy would "deceive" a guy like John Marsh." Well for crying out loud, John Marsh could easily do the same things."

----Agreed! Any two engaged fighters have the potential to do most things that the other could do, and I am limiting this here to unarmed combat for the sake of argument. The differences in innate abilities like natural speed quickness etc. do come into play. I'm sure you agree with that. But assuming both are absolutely equal in natural god given attributes, then I would argue that the training each has programmed in his brain and body will come to be the biggest differentiating factor. JUST BECAUSE BOTH YOU AND I COULD DO THE SAME THINGS, IF YOU DON'T TRAIN MUCH TO USE THOSE THINGS, THEN YOU AIN'T GONNA USE IT AS READILY AS I MAY USE THOSE THINGS. (This training includes things from actual techniques to the psychology to the strategy and tactics etc., that will be used in a real encounter.)

With respect to finger locks... "force a standing adversary onto his toes, thereby destroying his ability to resist, or to take him to the ground."

----Have you ever been a cop or a bouncer? The quote you site about fingers, and YOUR REACTION TO IT, is again based on inexperience. Do you know that small joint manipulations are illegal in MMA. I know that because I watch MMA regularly. It used to be allowed in ancient Greece where pankration originated.
I've watched Police use it, I've seen Robert use it to help control disruptive customers at the Yardhouse, and have used it myself. It's a tool to have in your toolbox. When you are a bouncer or cop, your job description does not permit beating the stuffing out of the bad guy. Lethal force, or maiming techniques, is only permitted in a life or death situation. To even try a joint lock manipulation requires a set up, or a non-highly combative opponent. As effective as finger locks can be, they are NOT part of the Meat and Potatoes of combat... Finger locks are a very effective, but specialized tool. It takes far more skill to control an opponent who is trying to kill you than to disable or kill him first. Hence my preference for the latter in a street fight.

This difficulty of controlling (or defeating) a motivated opponent who wants to kill you, is THE humongous reason why NO warriors throughout the whole history of human life and death war making, chose to go into battle without a darn WEAPON.


I'm sorry that your San Soo training was with misguided and / or misinformed and inexperienced instructors. I can certainly see why you criticize the San Soo you were taught. Most of your general criticism is correct, and I agree with you. But a few points you make are non-sequiturs. I suspect it is due mostly to lack of experience, for example with the finger locks criticism, or lack of life and death combat experiences to think that real warriors DREAM about the environment you think is ideal.

Heck, for that matter, I had to add the element of my war experience to the TMI experience to help fine tune what was taught. It was already head and shoulders above what I found to be taught at other schools, but still lacking, again due to lack of experience.

For what it is worth, I definitely did not think the Marsh fight was a good idea, for all of the above stated reasons. (Robert and Sean were business partners.) But it was Sean's idea, and if you knew Sean, it was his baby. Sean does what Sean wants to do. At least he only got a popped elbow capsule, and within two weeks he was able to throw roundhouses on the heavy bag (not piston straight punches though.) So he escaped with no broken bones, neck included, or any long lasting or significant injury. But for the 3rd or 4th time... this did not change the curriculum of San Soo. TMI was all on their own. It was the UFC that started the changes in many studios in 1993. That's why I think I am several decades older than you. You never got a feel for the impact of the Gracies when it started, it seems to me.

Steve
User avatar
Captain America
Site Admin
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:38 pm
Location: near Bismarck, North Dakota

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby RonG » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:34 pm

I feel that Dan has an agenda and is baiting but I would like to say a couple of things. Many have opinions that have never had a real fight for their lives. Many can never separate studio combat with street combat since they have only seen one style, they are quite different. I was totally against the fight that took place but that does not affect what I have to say.
I do not think any fighter would have had a good time fighting Marsh unless he had in depth fight experience and meeting a guy like Marsh in a hands up (go) type fight negates any type of set up unless you happen to be very lucky. It will be brute strength with a man who trains 10 times more than the average martial artist, it is like trying to fight a wild bear. Have you ever tried to bring down an angry Samoan, I have and most of then do not feel pain so leverage or pain compliance does not work, they are very strong.

Do you think you can disarm a good Escrima man without a weapon or even with a weapon, I will bet you can't.
Most of these guy's on Youtube are not very knowledgeable, in fact they are terrible. There is real San Soo out there, it is sad that it is not being passed on by many and so misunderstood.
RonG
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:02 pm

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby Captain America » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:03 pm

Dan from 6-12-12 Re: San Soo Experience

-----------------

I appreciate you replying.

It's good to know you agree with most of my general criticism. I wish we were able to meet in person so you would not misunderstand the few points I'm trying to make. I then could make it clear on what I'm trying to say. I guess it's my fault for not typing clearly.

If there is one "Chinese Martial Art" I would recommend anyone to take it would be San Shou AKA Sanda. I'm sure you have heard of it. If I could describe it to an American person in one sentence it would be "Muay Thai mixed with takedowns and throws."

The reason I would recommend it because the people train realistically, hard (they sweat like crazy), and know what it feels like to feel TRUE pain.

I know that you're thinking, "it's a tournament fighting sport." I know that a majority of Kung Fu San Soo guys could not last in the ring OR the street against a well trained San Shou guy. I would be willing to bet every dollar in my wallet the San Shou guy would win in the ring or street.



This response is going to be a little more picky as your just position is also a little more focused.

In general, Ron Gatewood's post above sums up a position that I also agree with. Namely, someone who is big and strong, especially coupled with extensive combat (including sport fighting) training is going to give you a real bad day if you are forced to fight them. Highly trained hand weapons practitioners will give you a real bad day if you are forced to fight them, ESPECIALLY if you try and disarm them. Ron is quite correct, actually 100% correct.

To deal with folks like this, you almost always need to be real well trained and in great condition also. Otherwise, your best, maybe only reasonable chance, is to surprise them, go first with a really painful or disabling shot - and like San Soo Sifu always says "Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!," or utilize any other "unfair" tactic you can come up with.

When some of the Olde Thyme San Soo guys trained to MAYBE have a fight with the Thai Kickboxers, they worked out with weights and ran some. Common sense dictates adding elements of sports training (like weight lifting and running etc.) to your training regimen if you know you are going to "compete."

As far as pain goes, I got a lot more hurt boxing and wrestling than I did practicing San Soo. I personally did not feel the need to feel pain from an eye gouge or broken arm or groin rupture or dislocated knee cap or throat stomp or skull fracture to be convinced that what I was practicing would hurt if successfully executed in a real street fight. When I practiced shooting in the military, Robert pointed out that I and my comrades didn't go and ask the Sergeant to shoot a bullet into our shoulders so we could feel "real pain!" Gladiators in ancient Rome had to use non-lethal practice and non-serious injury practice, else they would have a much higher chance of dying in the arena because they would enter a fight too injured to fight their best. Real pain they knew of well, they didn't have to get hurt in practice on purpose to be convinced of that.

Remember, most all San Soo students have gotten hurt in various ways from real fights to accidents outside of class, to playing football, to sport wrestling to even getting a tennis ball slammed into your eye (effeminate as that "sport" seems to the Captain it still HURTS! -- again, been there, done that). Not to mention the inevitable injuries that happen in class and demos. That's just the nature of training San Soo. But that's different than training with purposeful "real pain" inflicted as a routine daily endeavor.

Muay Thai with takedowns and throws....

Uh... Hello!!! Sounds like you are talking about a variation combination martial art. Again, like Robert would argue, San Soo IS a freaking combination martial art. Tsoi, Li, Ho is a three family martial art (per Jimmy H. Woo). These families contributed to the combination martial art of the old days and developed "San Soo" which utilized stand up, ground fighting, strikes, grabs, holds, joint locks, throws, takedowns, hair pulling, eye gouges, the circular and the linear, etc., etc., etc.

Lucky for us advocates of San Soo that Mr. Tsoi, and Mr. Li, and Mr. Ho didn't regard their fighting specialties as the end-all be-all martial art and took what was useful and discarded what didn't work (in their opinions) and created the first generation of the mixed martial art known to modern Americans as San Soo.

Muay Thai with takedowns and throws... I truly believe and know that for street fighting, the combination martial art of San Soo is more sophisticated, well-rounded and effective.

Don't confuse what I call the sophistication and effectiveness of Kung Fu San Soo equivalent to the practitioner's ability to use it. That is obviously a separate issue. A superb professional boxer in a street confrontation would almost certainly tear up most martial arts stylists regardless of style, including the vast, vast majority of San Soo folks.

Dan, you are making the case that a well trained fighter will almost always beat a lesser trained fighter. I cannot disagree with that. A part-time martial arts hobbyist can readily get to a level of competency that will help him to defend himself against the majority of one on one encounters that he is most likely to run into. Happily, the vast majority of San Soo people do not have to fight for their lives on anything approaching a regular basis. For that matter, the best Muay Thai fighter who utilizes takedowns and throws and who had to fight regularly for his life in the street would have a short life span indeed, as would everyone else, including the best MMA person you can think of.

Again, the odds of prevailing in the street go to the individual with the better physical attributes, coupled with the better training, the better technique, strategy and tactics... and mindset. This is not a San Soo vs. every other style issue.

It is preeminent common sense.

People don't go to a San Soo studio for the push ups and sit-ups and running and grueling physical exertion. They go to learn to defend themselves from a more likely opponent than a super trained ring monster who has a high resistance to pain, getting tired, relishes the impact of punches and kicks and the stretching of joints beyond what the body was designed to experience.

For those San Soo ultra athletes, there is always the training available somewhere to push the limits of their abilities if ring competition is what they want. If they just want to test their San Soo in the street, the opportunities are literally greater than the time they have available if they lived to be a hundred years old.

As Ron points out, and again I am in 100% agreement, there is a lot of garbage San Soo out there, and you can readily see a lot of it in many YouTube videos. If you are basing your lost love of San Soo on that kind of training, then I can hardly disagree. But there is, for whatever reason, a wide spectrum of training in the relatively small San Soo world. With my boxing and wrestling background and war experience etc., I found that where I trained in San Soo to be quite excellent. (Even if I had to tune up some of the curriculum... :twisted:
User avatar
Captain America
Site Admin
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:38 pm
Location: near Bismarck, North Dakota

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby San Soo Sifu » Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:38 pm

Question: How can someone (anyone) prove to a doubter that Kung-Fu San Soo is the "best?"

Answer: You cannot prove that anything is the "best?" You can only choose what is "best" for yourself.

Question: I find Kung-Fu San Soo to be not enough of a physical challenge, as far as a "work out."

Answer: As taught by 99% of studios / schools, that is probably a fair observation. I do CrossFit on my own time, to supplement my physical "work out routine."

Question: I want the martial art style / training that is going to make me the baddest dude on the planet, and undefeatable in a street fight.

Answer: That is an unrealistic goal in life. As my grandfather used to tell me (as I am sure many have heard the same from their own grandfather and/or father); "No matter how tough you are, strong you are, or mean you are; there is always someone else who is tougher, stronger, and meaner than you are," (and uglier goes without saying)! :twisted:

Try and avoid trouble, because trouble has a way of finding you.

Worrying about whether or not Kung-Fu San Soo is the "ultimate" martial art is more of a lack of self-confidence; rather than the merits (or lack of merits) of Kung-Fu San Soo. Train more. Worry less. Be happy. Enjoy life. Even Superman has his Kryptonite.
8)
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu
 
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby RonG » Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:52 am

Good post,
A man who chases his dream to be the best, is like a coke head chasing his first high; you just can't get there from here. Jimmy did not like students wasting their workout time to get in shape during class. Even though he had weights (for environment) he discouraged that kind of workout. He favored "Dynamic Tension" type exercises because it created better reactionary fighting muscle. He wanted us to use class time learning combat, he felt body conditioning could be done elsewhere. I remember him doing one legged squats in the early years.

I believe he knew that each of his students could not win every fight they were in, that is why he relied heavily on the Element of Surprise to add the odds in their favor.
RonG
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:02 pm

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby masterJeff » Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:19 pm

This fight was a joke! Sean Scott was a yellow belt. San Shou really? If you say that, then you don't know much about San Soo. You don't agree? Just show up to my class in Murrieta, California. I will show you that I have been in plenty of fights with MMA guys, pro boxers, Olympic level guys. No, these guys aren't jumping you on the street.
masterJeff
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 11:37 am
Location: Whittier,ca

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby San Soo Sifu » Mon Aug 01, 2016 1:35 am

Dan, who took a year to earn his yellow belt, and went no further than that (by his own admission); from a first generation master he is unwilling to name (according to Dan)...

Has created his own blog after being kicked out of 2.0 by Willard Ford (imagine that).

Here, Dan types his myopic rantings for his own amusement. Dan has all the answers; just ask him!

http://kungfusansootruth.blogspot.com/?m=1
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu
 
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby San Soo Sifu » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:35 am

Yes Dan, I provided a link to your blog here on A.S.S.

I also, first, provided a link to your blog on Kung Fu San Soo 2.0

I don't think ideas should be censored; no matter how misguided or incorrect they may be.

Your recent dramatic increase in blog hits is solely, 100%, due to me. You're welcome!

On a side note, the comments about you on 2.0 are both hilarious and entertaining.

I noticed you have lots of time to type, which indicates you don't train much; if at all.
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu
 
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:50 am

I see Ron, that you took the bait. Shame on you! You are old enough, and (hopefully) wise enough to not engage in an intellectual conversation with someone who demands fight records of San Soo practitioners; but is unwilling to publicly state who he (supposedly) learned Kung-Fu San Soo from.

He also claimed to you (Ron) that he doesn't bait, and isn't disrespectful to anyone involved in Kung-Fu San Soo; however, his below quote proves otherwise...

Any Kung Fu San Soo guy who thinks KFSS has clinching is either a complete idiot or a liar!


I call that person both a hypocrite, and a liar.
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu
 
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby Ron G » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:48 pm

No, I just wanted to see what his problem is, thought he was messed up but watching him it is clear he is a sick puppy. To have so much hate one must conclude his instructor probably screwed him someway (real or not) but he is not rational. His MO is to come in nice & polite, then shares his rant until he goes totally rabid, finishing on what a nice guy he is and does not want to offend. Of course if his instructor is on Bernie's site he would have to be a good guy. BAA HA HA
Ron G
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:20 pm

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby San Soo Sifu » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:03 pm

"Name one! Name one! Name one! Name just one person! You can't do it!"

Apparently Dan is truly a basement dwelling, momma's boy, Internet keyboard warrior, troll.

Because I will provide one name; just one name...

Ian "Uncle Creepy" McCall.

Interviewer: Did you have a martial arts background before, or has it all been learned since you started MMA?

Ian McCall: I got my black belt in Kung Fu San Soo as a kid. I did that for about 10 years.


Of course, when faced with real evidence; he will rant, rave, and obfuscate.

You will be forever ignored (by me); and when I say something, I stick to it. You won't be getting anymore viewer hits from me. It's a done deal; you have been shut down, you lost the battle of wits. Your rants and raves will not change reality, its perception, or a single person from signing up for Kung Fu San Soo. I'm sorry you had such an inferior instructor listed on http://www.kungfusansoo.com
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu
 
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby Dedicated Villain » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:04 am

http://kungfusansootruth.blogspot.com/?m=0

This guy really seems to dislike Kung-Fu San Soo.
User avatar
Dedicated Villain
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:55 am

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby Ron G » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:20 pm

Let this sleeping dog lay, he has quit posting. I have communicated with him, he is totally irrational I suspect they may have had some kind of relationship break up.

PS He does not have the guts to show his or his instructors name, even in my condition I would like to check out what he knows.
Ron G
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:20 pm

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby Dedicated Villain » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:05 pm

Sorry for bringing it up. Wow this thread explains a lot.

Didn't know it was already discussed.

i must admit I struggle with San Soo at times due to the way I was taught it. Learning more about Old San Soo and reading this forum and buying books is giving me a better understanding. Can't wait to meet and learn from many of you when I return to the states.
User avatar
Dedicated Villain
 
Posts: 62
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:55 am

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby San Soo Sifu » Tue May 23, 2017 8:01 pm

Danny wrote:Saturday, July 2, 2016

Hello Everyone,
This is a post to discuss the title of this blog "Kung Fu San Soo Truth." 16 years ago I studied the martial art of Kung Fu San Soo. My instructor is a member of the Kung Fu San Soo Association and is listed on the website KungFuSanSoo.com. I studied for less than a year and attained the rank of yellow belt. Anyways, as time went on in my KFSS training other things came into my life that prevented me from training further.

I'll never forget the day I went into his school to hand him the final payment and inform him I wouldn't be studying Kung Fu San Soo anymore.

As soon as I walked into his school my KFSS teacher just stared at me and didn't say a word. There was no "Hi (name), nice to see you, been a long time." I think he knew what was going to happen. I had to speak first and inform him why I came in. He obviously was upset, not that I couldn't keep training in the art, but he wasn't going to have a student give him some money each month to eat. As I walked out of the school I thanked him for his time and he just closed the door.

Looking back, he knew the art of San Soo well and could perform the San Soo techniques and lessons well, but put him against a guy who trains in martial arts like Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and he would get the crap kicked out of him.

My experience in Kung Fu San Soo was bad due to the fact it didn't train me to deal with real live non-cooperating opponents bent on beating the crap out of me, but instead, had me "play fight" with other people.

Harsh truth. Well, the harsh truth is that Kung Fu San Soo is like many of the martial arts that don't focus on reality of combat and if you find yourself going against a person who has trained in real hand to hand combat situations like Muay Thai, Sanda, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, etc. be prepared not to make it home to your mom, wife, or girlfriend.

There's a phrase used by many martial artists that styles don't matter, but it's the person who makes the difference. Well, in my opinion that's not true. Fighting styles do matter in an outcome of a fight. I'll write about this in the future.

Also, here is a video of the play fighting in San Soo. Most of the training in San Soo involves this type of stuff where a person throws a punch and reacts to the counter attacks thrown by the training partner. There's no actual hitting your opponent to see if your techniques are really effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsldwsyyfHQ
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu
 
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Danny's IP Number from Wikipedia...

Postby San Soo Sifu » Tue May 23, 2017 8:50 pm

Country: USA
State: Washington
District / County: Thurston County
City: Tumwater
Zip / Postal code: 98511
IP: 73.83.232.71


Eric K. Hermansen wrote:In 1996 I opened a school in Olympia, Washington and started teaching the art at Evergreen State College. I've currently signed on as martial arts contractor for Fort Lewis military base. In 1999 I was awarded my Masters degree.

http://www.kungfusansoo.com/KungFuSanSoo/Instructors.html
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu
 
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott Fight

Postby San Soo Sifu » Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:57 pm

I have it on good authority that Danny is in the background of the following video clips. It sure is funny that after the two most recent posts in this thread; Danny has completely shut down, and removed his blog!

Eric K. Hermansen

Ah Soo 45 Lesson # 10
https://youtu.be/FcS0YAkDRGw


Wrist Chin Na (Wrist Leverage 3rd Lesson)
https://youtu.be/B2eXVi6C4_Y


Chin Na Throat Leverage
https://youtu.be/68uLZ2wT2kk
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!
User avatar
San Soo Sifu
 
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:44 pm
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Re: Danny's insecurities and the John Marsh vs. Sean Scott F

Postby Ron G » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:45 am

Good Job Jon,
Once guys like Danny are outed their guts seem to disappear. They are all the same, their instructor must remain secret, they can not use their own name, they hide behind their computer, hide their real rank and are generally a punk that thinks he knows more than a real student. They are a waste of time and not worth responding to. Maybe Eric could tell us more about him, what he does for a living, let's look at all his secrets, would be good for a laugh.
Ron G
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:20 pm


Return to Miscellaneous

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron