Sacrifice throws

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Sacrifice throws

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:20 pm

Bob Shores wrote:Friday, July 28, 2000; 11:18 a.m.

According to Tim Cartmell; Kung-Fu San Soo is the only southern Chinese system that incorporates sacrifice throws, as part of the curriculum. Whether or not this was added by Jimmy H. Woo, or always part of the system, is anybody's guess.
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Re: Sacrifice throws

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Ron G wrote:Tim Cartmell told me a long time ago that the only Chinese art who uses sacrifice throws is Shuai Jiao.



I have no idea what Ron Gatewood and Tim Cartmell spoke about; only those two know.

However, this is what Bob Shores reported as his conversation with Tim Cartmell (and only Bob Shores and Tim Cartmell would truly know what was said between the two of them).


Bob Shores wrote:Friday, July 28, 2000; 11:18 a.m.

According to Tim Cartmell; Kung-Fu San Soo is the only southern Chinese system that incorporates sacrifice throws, as part of the curriculum. Whether or not this was added by Jimmy H. Woo, or always part of the system, is anybody's guess.
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Re: Sacrifice throws

Postby Ron G » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:31 am

I don't see why it is relevant? I know what I was told, Barbara was there, ask her, we don't lie.
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Tim Cartmell's post on Shen Wu.

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:54 am

Tim Cartmell wrote:By Tim on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 02:05 pm: Edit Post

The primary difference is the absence of groundwork in Shuai Jiao. Shuai Jiao is a stand up throwing art.

In addition, you accumulate points in a Shuai Jiao match over a period of time, the fighter with the most points wins. A Judo match can be won with a clean, hard throw that lands an opponent on his back, or by a submission technique on the ground.

Sacrifice throws are also illegal in Shuai Jiao (if you dropped to the ground to throw your opponent, you would have effectively "thrown" yourself first).

I think Shuai Jiao has a greater variety of throwing techniques than Judo and a greater number of allowed grips.

http://www.shenwu.com/discus/messages/429/1263.html?1060934278
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Re: Sacrifice throws

Postby Ron G » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:12 pm

Well, I guess it was not Tim, it must have been someone who looked like him. Shame on me. I am just not going to justify everything I say; believe me, or not. You know, there is Combat Shuai Jiao.
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Official Rules for Shuai Jiao (2017 Edition)

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:13 pm

Section 2 Scoring Violation
Article 1 Score Violation.
In the case that the thrower makes Illegal Contact during an attempted throw before the opponent makes contact with the mat during a fall, the opponent will be awarded 1 point by Technical Score. We discourage the use of sacrifice throws and unsafe technique that would be hazardous to use in a “street­fight” environment.


Section 4 Situational Technique
Article 1 Fighters Falling at the Same Time.
When a technique is applied which causes both fighters to fall at the same time, the person on top, who has not made illegal contact with the mat or incurred any violation, will be awarded the score of 1 point.

http://shaolininstitute.com/institute/SCRules2017.pdf
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Re: Sacrifice throws

Postby Ron G » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:35 pm

Check out picture #2...

http://www.combatshuaichiao.com/preview3.html

What do you think #3 would be? I am leaving the subject. I don't have time to play.
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Re: Sacrifice throws

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:05 pm

In general the rules are the same as Sumo (which can be argued derived from Shuai Chiao), first to touch anything other than your feet to the ground...losses! For this very reason sacrifice throws are not common place. The Chinese NEVER formulated a comprehensive curriculum for ground grappling, so their is no "pulling guard" nor ground grappling. Many consider ground grappling to be akin to "rolling in the dirt like dogs." Though it has become fashionable for Shuai Chiao schools to now "find" the lost ground techniques of the Chinese martial arts.

http://www.groundnevermisses.com/2010/01/shuai-chiao-chinese-wrestling.html?m=1
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Re: Sacrifice throws

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:13 pm

Another difference between judo and Chinese wrestling was that in judo you are allowed to do a sacrifice throw, where you throw yourself to the ground, with the opponent. In Chinese wrestling, this is discouraged. In san da it’s not allowed at all anymore. In judo, not only were you allowed to go with the opponent, but it seemed you were allowed to hit the ground first, as long as you rolled over into top position and controlled him.

https://magazine.fighttimes.com/wrestler-looks-judo-part-1/
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Re: Sacrifice throws

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:25 pm

Shuai Jiao rules also forbid all chokes and joint locks, and you lose a point if you put a knee, or a hand, on the ground. This means there are no submissions, and very few sacrifice throws in Shuai Jiao (as the first one to touch the ground loses the point).

http://chinacombat.blogspot.com/2007/02/shuai-jiao.html?m=1
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Re: Sacrifice throws

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:36 pm

It closely resembles Judo with just a few key differences. One of the major differences between Shuai Chiao and Judo is that Shuai Chiao has no ground game or newaza. I think it has to do with the mindset of most Chinese arts that there may be multiple opponents involved in a real fight, and it would be best not to go to the ground. This mindset also affects the type of throws that are in Shuai Chiao. Shuai Chiao has no Sutemi Waza or sacrifice throws. All of the throws end up with the tori or thrower being on their feet.

http://bekeriya.com/videos/watch?v=cQrZGwUPrg8
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