Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby San Soo Sifu » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:20 pm

Do you believe that your insightful greatness (sarcasm) sprung forth fully formed out of your own ass, the way that the Greek goddess Athena (wisdom) sprung forth fully formed from the skull of Zeus?

Or, do you believe that if you have been able to see farther than others, it is because you have stood on the shoulders of giants? (Sir Isaac Newton)

Too many frauds subscribe to the first line of thinking.
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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby San Soo Sifu » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:26 pm

Please feel free to add to this thread, dealing with the psychological aspects of training and combat.

There are no secrets anymore; only self aggrandizing frauds selling snake oil.

https://youtu.be/3fHwhZGlA9E

https://youtu.be/EF2NdKV5eYw

https://youtu.be/5sXoqhLnGlk

https://youtu.be/41gigL2Dzpo

https://youtu.be/MuyO2Nm5xdE

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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby Ron G » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:51 pm

Looks to me like something Torin Hill (from 2.0) would put together. In the future would you advise things like this so we could put on our boots so we could stay above the BS.
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A rose by any other name...

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:52 pm

Ron G wrote:Looks to me like something Torin Hill (from 2.0) would put together. In the future would you advise things like this so we could put on our boots so we could stay above the BS.


Torin Hill bloviating...

Driving it Home with the Professor EP. 5.6 featur…: http://youtu.be/gn5GfIfP1WE

I watched the entire podcast. The comments that followed were interesting to read.

I have read two different biographies on Dr. Jigoro Kano, founder of Kodokan Judo; and I have never read nor heard the anecdote story that Torin Hill is attempting to peddle. If that little so-called factoid is made up, one can only wonder what else may be made up also.

SCARS, UFA, SAFTA, TFT, TORIS.

A rose by any other name would still smell like Kung-Fu San Soo.
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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:50 pm

Hey Captain, if you can endure through 1:33:32 of bloviating, you can hear Torin Hill speak about his experience with SCARS (without directly saying SCARS) and going through their 4 year program in 2 years. Then, branching out with Tim Larkin to do TFT (again, without naming names directly). Here Torin Hill writes his comments to the below video clip on Kung-Fu San Soo 2.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YV0lvgG7MwU


Torin Hill wrote:Of course, we need to recognize that the whole ball of wax got dropped in favor of CQD, a Wing Chun derivative (guilty of worse rebranding than SCARS), which then all got scrapped for Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiujitsu, Boxing and Kali Escrima--aka MMA with knives.
As somebody with intimate knowledge of SCARS, and as the guy that developed TFT for Larkin according to spec: if you took all of the 'art' of San Soo out, and just tripled-down on trying to fight, you would have a pretty good base of these spin offs.
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A riddle wrapped in an enigma...

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:21 pm

Jon Stewart wrote:You are a riddle, wrapped in an enigma, drizzled in delicious bullshit!
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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby Ron G » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:04 am

I watched 7 minutes of it, I have never seen a clear photo of him as he seems to stay away from photos. When I watched I could not help but think of a combination of Mr. Magoo and Bugs Bunny, their actions reminded me of someone at a meth party. He talks out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, he first told us that he threw away his martial Arts belts because they were useless but when he was asked to prove this info he said he was not a martial artist. He definitely has some knowledge of trauma to the body, he was also told he was charging too much ($800 I think it was), then he dropped it to $300 something, still too much. Some guys that went thought it was boring but one of the 2.0 heavyweights convinced some to post how good it was so they could have another one. This caused me to wonder why this person would care, I have my suspicions. He pulled some people I respect into his camp so he must be a good car salesman. One even nominated him to the Martial Arts Hall of fame, FOR WHAT? His M O is to call a person on the phone when that guy blasts him about something and he asks to keep it out of the forum. Are there any honest people left, I wonder.
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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:55 pm

So, in that video clip above, Torin Hill states that while in San Diego, he completed someone's (he didn't say whose) 4 year program in 2 years. Now, he seems to be back-peddling on that statement. If not Jerry Peterson, then whom? Tim Larkin did NOT get anything new added to his TFT. I have most of Tim Larkin's DVDs and it still looks like watered down Kung-Fu San Soo. But, what do I know?

Torin Hill wrote:I can't speak to the origin of SCARS. I've never taken a course from Peterson, and only met the man twice. I can say that what I made for Larkin was never directly taken from SCARS, only insomuch as I have no working knowledge of SCARS on which to base my work. The whole discussion becomes interesting if we also ask "who's work did Jimmy repackage?" because it is clear that some (if not most) of what Woo taught is neither regional nor "from the scrolls of Kwan Yin Monastery."
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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:03 pm

Ron Gatewood, start watching and carefully listening to what he says at the 5:15 minute mark in that video clip above. You knew (and know) all the players down in San Diego, circa 1994. Torin Hill gives just enough information to find out his real background.
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Torin Hill's true martial arts background

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:12 pm

Universal Fighting Arts at UCSD

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/archive ... 26607.html



I remember these guys from surfing the Internet circa 1999-2000.

Torin Hill specifically states UCSD at the 5:32 minute mark in that video clip above.
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UFA at UCSD

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:35 pm

Anonymous wrote:UCSD Autobiography
Most schools have very good recreation departments, where you can play a multitiude of intramural sports. But if sports isn't your thing, these rec depts. often offer dance lessons, massage clinics, outdoor activities (i.e. hiking, canoeing, etc.), and my personal favorite, martial arts. I picked up Universal Fighting three years ago through my rec department, and it has been one of the most enjoyable things I have done in college. The class is surprisingly brutal for a university rec course, but It has proven to be useful.



Anonymous wrote:I know UCSD has a number of good martial arts programs. If you're interested in self-defense I believe UCSD still had a class called Universal Fighting, which was pretty brutal (based in large part on San Soo). I believe it is the unarmed combat system that SEALs are at least initially trained. Kind of a macho atmosphere though and broken noses/arms/etc. are not unknown to occur in class although they aren't frequent.



Anonymous wrote:I did San Soo for a few years and stopped at brown. Studied under Jerry Peterson (of SCARS fame, or infamy; however you see it). Tony & Chris Buhr, and a few others for brief periods in San Diego and near San Luis Obispo (California).



Anonymous wrote:Tony Buhr was my first teacher. I started going to Jerry Peterson's after I got my yellow or green belt. Tony stopped teaching, and his brother Chris took over classes at UCSD. Jerry's studio was cool - pretty much open all day long. You could come in any time, and find people working out. Jerry had his Master certificate from Jimmy H. Woo on the wall, along with a picture of Jimmy reading the family books.



Anonymous wrote:So I'm taking this fighting class at UCSD called Universal Fighting (UFA). In the simplest terms, it teaches you how to fuck people up. There's no martial-arts-esque meditative or spiritual aspect of it. There's no 'class' system with masters and different color belts and that sort of shit. What it is about is knowing how the human body automatically reacts when you hit certain areas. For example, when you hit somebody in the groin, they hunch over, bend their knees, reach for their dong, and stick their neck out. Seriously. Try it on a friend. The premise of this class is knowing how to string together a series of blows to your opponent so that they don't have a chance to fight back because they're too busy 'reacting' to whatever damage you just inflicted on their person. Since I'm a macho fuck and like the idea of being able to beat up people, I naturally love this class. However, the real reason I dig this class so much is that there's actually a hottie taking it.



Anonymous wrote:Once I recovered, I tried out a class that was happening on the UCSD campus, called Universal Fighting. The ad copy describes it as follows:

This is a no-nonsense hand-to-hand combat course. Learn the 5 principles of fighting: striking, leverage, human physiology, offensive psychology and physical dynamics. All aspects of weaponry are covered with a focus on contemporary street weapons. Come learn an enduring life skill in a relaxed and friendly environment.

I liked many aspects of this class. They trained technique series -- strike A, strike B, leverage C, strike D. I appreciated the concept of programming in these series so you could enact them as a continuous stream rather than having to consciously pick each new technique. They didn't go in for pain- or submission-based techniques, which I liked because I know that pain methods don't always work (many fail on me, for example -- I lack nerves). I liked the "once you decide to fight, be fully on the offensive" mindset they espoused.

Recent reading has helped me articulate the downsides of the program. There is no sparring of any kind; instead, one person acts as a victim while the other person moves through their attack series. The ostensible logic is that sparring is unrealistic, and you're training to take someone out. This logic is flawed. If the techniques are meant to work on an active, conscious individual who wants to hurt you, then they really ought to be tested on someone who isn't letting you use them as a striking dummy.

The argument against this, of course, is that the techniques are too dangerous to practice full contact and full speed. Indeed, some of them are -- I don't want anyone practicing neck breaks or eye gouges full contact or full speed. But with the right gear (gloves, cup, headgear, mouthguard, goggles) you really should be able to set two practitioners at each other and see what happens. I felt as we learned many techniques that they really wouldn't work -- but that was never tested, so unless you go start a fight somewhere, you will never know. In contrast, I know that everything I learned from Roy works because after learning it each day we went and used it.

A second flaw was the presence of meaningless forms. As above, the forms were not intuitively related to the "realistic" techniques taught in class, and were mainly justified as presenting exaggerated versions of certain motions. My favorite instructor admitted that in a real fight, she'd just go at the person with compact strikes from the body rather than do anything even vaguely fancy. The forms ran quite counter to the advertised "no-nonsense" training. More annoyingly, they were required if you wanted to advance, which was in turn required if you wanted training in fighting against the full range of "street weapons."

A third flaw was an advanced version of the "our school only" mindset I discussed earlier. There was a fairly religious belief in the class that it was not a traditional martial art, and that all other training was bunk. They had no belt or rank system...except for the different levels that wore different colored t-shirts and had to learn forms to progress to the next level. As a beginning student, you can wear any white t-shirt -- but one instructor was upset when I wore a t-shirt from the 1998 UC Open Taekwondo tournament, and made me wear it inside out. What is that, but being asked not to wear a symbol from outside the faith? Bizarre.

As I mentioned before, most of the instructors also considered grappling pointless. I asked about this once and then gave up on it. If one of the head instructors thinks that hurting my ankle is a good counter to a rear naked choke, what can I say? If we were in the kind of real fight the class is aimed at, he can break my damn ankle if it means I choke him into unconsciousness. I imagine the believer would assert that they would never end up in a rear naked choke. To that, I suggest that they try to avoid being taken down by a trained mixed-martial art competitor, and failing that, try to avoid being set up in whatever position the dude wants once he has you down.

It may seem as if I'm down on these people, and I'm not. This class had zero dumbasses and only a couple of annoying people, and that's out of a lot of students and instructors. I really liked them. But in retrospect, the flaws were very large and made the class eventually unrewarding to me.
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Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:30 am

Well, here you go folks!

Tony Buhr was listed as the instructor for the "Universal Fighting" at UCSD in the recreation department course catalog.

http://web.archive.org/web/200409110718 ... ct&id=3285

Here is Tony Buhr doing a Kung-Fu San Soo demonstration from 1988 at UCSD.

SanSoo Demo '88: http://youtu.be/_OFAMvdWRmk

Let me see, 1988 comes before 1994 and 2004.

Jerry Peterson
Tony Buhr
Lew Hicks
Tim Larkin
Torin Hill

You can run, but you can't hide from the true lineage of where your fighting techniques come from.

Without Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo, you gentlemen wouldn't be who & where you are today.
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Universal Fighting Arts

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:46 am

This is the original website that I remember from circa 1999-2000 (even though the way back machine doesn't have any updates from that far back).

This guy's (Eric Baugh) instructor was Chris Ranck-Buhr. Chris Ranck-Buhr must be related to Tony Buhr.

http://web.archive.org/web/200411061912 ... b_UFA.html
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BS meter is off the charts!

Postby San Soo Sifu » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:01 am

Torin Hill wrote:As somebody with intimate knowledge of SCARS, and as the guy that developed TFT for Larkin according to spec: if you took all of the 'art' of San Soo out, ...


Torin Hill wrote:I can't speak to the origin of SCARS. I've never taken a course from Peterson, and only met the man twice. I can say that what I made for Larkin was never directly taken from SCARS, only insomuch as I have no working knowledge of SCARS on which to base my work. ...



(The following needs to be said in a stereotypical Native American Indian voice...)

"White man speak with forked tongue!"
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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby Ron G » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:53 pm

"White man speak with forked tongue!" Many think as a forked tongue being like a snake (which also may apply) that has a simple 2 forks, when thinking about the above subject I would have to consider a dinner fork that has more. I see no honor in the man, he did however pull the 2.0 group into his mouse trap and they ate and swallowed his poison. Is it not an unforgiveable crime (of some type) the he is listed in the Martial Arts Hall Of Fame, as far as I can see they have zero credibility. Any certificate is NOW not worthy to wipe someone's butt.
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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby Ron G » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:26 pm

PS I read the form http://web.archive.org/web/200411061912 ... b_UFA.html these guys are not too smart. They have no understanding of the civil and criminal liabilities they have opened themselves to. "Never leave a man conscious on the ground," "bury your knuckle deep in their eye socket," "when in doubt, kick them in the head;" stupid, stupid, stupid. Not only do they face doing time, if one of their students do this and the Court reads this form they are dead ducks. They strut like peacocks, however I think how they will look slumped in their courtroom chairs waiting for their verdict.
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Caution! BS up ahead!

Postby San Soo Sifu » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:55 pm

Torin Hill wrote:As somebody with intimate knowledge of SCARS


Torin Hill wrote:I have no working knowledge of SCARS
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Full Circle

Postby San Soo Sifu » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:01 pm

What goes around, comes around; and comes around full circle.

Tony Buhr called what he taught in 1988, Kung-Fu San Soo.
SanSoo Demo '88: http://youtu.be/_OFAMvdWRmk

Tony Buhr calls what he teaches in 2015, Kung-Fu San Soo.
https://recreation.ucsd.edu/registratio ... a=3&group=


It doesn't matter who you are...

Jerry Peterson & Tim Larkin & Lew Hicks (Special Combat Aggressive Reactionary Systems - SCARS)
Tony Buhr & Chris Ranck-Buhr & Torin Hill (Universal Fighting Arts - UFA)
Lew Hicks & Jon Hess (Scientifically Aggressive Fighting Technology of America - SAFTA)
Tim Larkin & Chris Ranck-Buhr & Torin Hill (Target Focus Training - TFT)
Torin Hill (Threat Oriented Rapid Incapacitation System - TORIS)

It ALL comes from Kung-Fu San Soo & Grand Master Jimmy H.Woo!

A rose by any other name would still smell like Kung-Fu San Soo. ©
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Torin Hill's background is San Soo.

Postby Captain America » Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:13 pm

All the folks listed above that passed or are passing off their "systems" as their own creation with respect to combat principles and techniques instead of acknowledging Jimmy H. Woo Kung Fu San Soo as their foundational art, are clearly being dishonest.

During the time that TMI was providing about a hundred classes on supplemental close quarters combat on Camp Pendleton at the invite of 1st Force Recon and 1st Battalion Recon from late 1997 thru 2000, what was taught was ALWAYS called Kung Fu San Soo, with Jimmy H. Woo as the originating instructor in the USA. Never did TMI charge for a class for Marines. Never was a book or training manual SOLD to a Marine... they were only GIVEN. TMI never charged $779 dollars to thousands of dollars for classes for a weekend or a few days promising too-good-to-be-true results in one's fighting ability, if only you forked over the big bucks.

TMI was a Jimmy H. Woo Kung Fu San Soo studio (about $75 bucks a month, not thousands for a few days).

TMI would adapt principles and techniques to an agency's or a unit’s personal armament and escalation of force policies, but those adaptations were of San Soo... not adaptations that were the result of any sort of "divine revelation." No renaming of San Soo with amusing acronyms. No BS claims of development and origination of the style. It was simply presented as real world fighting mechanics and physiology and psychology.

Toi Li Haw Fut Hung from Jimmy H. Woo.
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Torin Hill, Show us what you have!

Postby Ron G » Fri May 15, 2015 12:33 am

That was Jimmy's favorite thing to tell another martial artist when he thought he was full of crap. You hide behind your computer, phone, some mystical training facility who trains all elite Government Agencies and Law Enforcement Agencies, will I say tell us which ones and the contact and I will find out how truthful you are. You read, study, spit out words in an attempt to prove your knowledge however that is not experience, I don't think you can fight. Come out from your cave and show us what you know, I am sure we will all be impressed, I will personally set up a demo. Here is your chance, "show us what you got". You talk out of both sides of you mouth at the same time, first you threw your belts and diplomas away, then you are not a martial artist and now you were a martial artist. Smells a little don't you think?
Someone sent this to me, he is referring to the book by Jack Dempsey's book (good book) and again want's to tear down all arts because of his superior knowledge. I believe him to be a book worm who has not had a original thought in his life.
Judge for yourself.
PS. Torin, would you tell us where you got your blueprint, I would like to see it.

Posted
Torin Hill
“My conversations and my reading left me utterly amazed at the hazy, incomplete and distorted conceptions of self-defense possessed by many who are supposed to be experts. Perhaps I was unjustly critical. Perhaps none of them had had my unusual opportunities to get a blueprint that mapped all the fundamentals, at least. Or perhaps they took many fundamentals for granted and did not include them in their explanations. At any rate, I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT SELF-DEFENSE IS BEING TAUGHT WRONG NEARLY EVERYWHERE, FOR THE FOLLOWING MAJOR REASONS:
1. Beginners are not grounded in the four principal methods of putting the body-weight into fast motion: (a) FALLING STEP, (b) LEG SPRING, (c) SHOULDER WHIRL, (d) UPWARD SURGE.
2. The extremely important POWER LINE in punching seems to have been forgotten.
3. The wholesale failure of instructors and trainers to appreciate the close cooperation necessary between the POWER LINE and WEIGHT-MOTION results generally in impure punching-weak hitting.
4. Explosive straight punching has become almost a lost art because instructors place so much emphasis on shoulder whirl that beginners are taught wrongfully to punch straight 'without stepping whenever possible.
5. Failure to teach the FALLING STEP ("trigger step") for straight punching has resulted in the LEFT JAB being used generally as a light, auxiliary weapon for making openings and "setting up," instead of as a stunning blow.
6. Beginners are not shown the difference between SHOVEL HOOKS and UPPERCUTS.
7. Beginners are not warned that taking LONG STEPS with hooks may open up those hooks into SWINGS.
8. The BOB-WEAVE rarely is explained properly.
9. Necessity for the THREE-KNUCKLE LANDING is never pointed out.
10. It is my personal belief that BEGINNERS SHOULD BE TAUGHT ALL TYPES OF PUNCHES BEFORE BEING INSTRUCTED IN DEFENSIVE MOVES, for nearly every defensive move should be accompanied by a simultaneous or a delayed counterpunch. You must know how to punch and you must have punching confidence before you can learn aggressive defense.”
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