Black Belt Instructional Books

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Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:36 am

James Paul King wrote:Hey gang, it has been a while since we have gotten into a good discussion. So, in light of that, I wanted to ask you folks a few questions that just might help me with a few things. Not to mention get our talks going again.

1) How many of you have used the Black Belt Instructional Books?

2) How many of you have tried, and found them difficult for some reason; and eventually stopped using them?

3) How many of you have questions about them?

4) Are you interested in hearing about some of the cool facts on the Black Belt Instructional Books? You might be surprised!

I have a few good reasons for getting this particular discussion off of the ground. So, please feel free, one and all, to weigh in on this topic. I can use your thoughts, and concerns about this. So, what are you waiting for? Send in your posts about this topic!
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Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:43 am

Duane Beadle wrote:From: Numpi 10/4/2002 2:25 pm
To: ALL (1 of 5)
238.1

Greetings and Salutations:

There is a set of Black Belt Instructional Books on:
http://www.kungfusansoo.com/memorabilia.htm

Does anyone know who wrote them? In addition, since there are five of them, do they cover: Ah Soo, Fut Ga, Tsoi Li Hoi, Top Ga, and Num Pi?

I am an early student of Frank Woolsey, Steve Howell, Dave Sword, and Bill Hulsey. I started studying from Frank Woolsey back in 1973.
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Master Carl Lorenzen's lesson notes...

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:46 pm

San Soo Sifu wrote:From: San Soo Sifu (SanSooSifu) 10/4/2002 4:21 pm
To: Numpi (2 of 5)
238.2 in reply to 238.1

Master Carl Lorenzen wrote those books. He took private lessons, along with Master Russell Williams, from Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo. I cannot remember if the three of them practiced in Mr. Carl Lorenzen's garage, or if they all practiced in Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo's garage? You would have to ask Eric Thomson, he would know better on that issue. The five Black Belt Instructional Books cover the years from 1978 - 1982. One year per book. The only thing that would be in those books that compare to the lesson sets from the Frank Woolsey lineage would be what Master Carl Lorenzen calls "Dap Ga" lessons in book number one. "Dap Ga" would be the same as the "Ah Soo" lessons. I know, because I have compared them side-by-side. For further information on this very subject matter please refer to the thread entitled The Compiled and Revised Basic 45 (+ 6).
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Master Carl Lorenzen's lesson notes...

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:47 pm

Eric Thomson wrote:From: eric_thomson 10/4/2002 4:57 pm
To: Numpi (3 of 5)
238.3 in reply to 238.1

The Black Belt Instructional Books are the work of Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo, Master Carl Lorenzen, and Master Russell Williams. After Carl Lorenzen moved down to Lake Forest, California (1977 or 1978, not sure); Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo followed shortly thereafter. Jimmy H. Woo was teaching Carl Lorenzen in his garage, and invited Russell Williams to be Carl Lorenzen's partner; because Russell Williams had a school on Forbes Road in Laguna Niguel, California (a few miles from where Jimmy H. Woo lived). Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo trained Carl Lorenzen and Russell Williams in his garage for about 15 years, until Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo died on February 14, 1991. The books are basically Carl Lorenzen's notes from those training sessions. They were put together with just forms and techniques. Forms were called forms; and the techniques were called Dap Ga (combinations), Fut Ga (entrances & exits), and leverages. In total, there are about 50 forms, and 400 techniques in the five books. I do not think there are any references to Ah Soo, Tsoi Li Hoi, Num Pi, etc., because those were terms that Frank Woolsey used. Master Bill Hulsey got his black belt from Frank Woolsey, and then he trained with Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo, and got his Masters from Jimmy H. Woo in El Monte, California. That might be why Bill Hulsey uses the terms Ah Soo, Tsoi Li Hoi, Num Pi, etc. Also, the forms in these books start out with the practitioner facing West. Actually, they are suppossed to start with the person facing North. It is just that Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo's garage was oriented East to West, and they faced West when they trained in his garage. So, when Jimmy H. Woo told Carl Lorenzen to face a particular way; that is what he wrote down. Afterward, Carl Lorenzen realized that Jimmy H. Woo meant for all the forms to start out facing North, but he did not bother to change it (and many other typos); because he did not want just anybody to pick up the books, and start learning Kung-Fu San Soo. In addition, a lot of the techniques are purposely vague; and have intentional typos to confound, and confuse, anyone who was not intimate with the art, or had a high level teacher to explain it to them. I had been studying Kung-Fu San Soo for about 3 years before I was able to understand a lot of the things that Carl Lorenzen is talking about in his techniques; and I still need my teachers Scott Pemberton and Mark Colby to help me out. I also have trained in other arts off and on for about 9 or 10 years (of training time) before I started Kung-Fu San Soo. I do not know if that helped me, or hindered me. But I was able to latch on to a lot of things that no untrained person would have been able to until Black Belt level, or higher. Shortly before Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo's death in 1991, Carl Lorenzen gave the books to Jimmy H. Woo as a gift. Shortly after Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo's death, Master Carl Lorenzen retired. His only two students are my teachers. My name is Eric Thomson, I am a brown belt, and have trained in Kung-Fu San Soo for four years. My teachers are Scott Pemberton and Mark Colby. They both have trained with Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo (very briefly); and with Master Carl Lorenzen for the last 18 or 19 years.
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Jimmy H. Woo selling copies during the 1980s!

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:54 pm

San Soo Sifu wrote:From: San Soo Sifu (SanSooSifu) 10/4/2002 5:11 pm
To: eric_thomson (4 of 5)
238.4 in reply to 238.3


Shortly before Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo's death in 1991, Carl Lorenzen gave the books to Jimmy H. Woo as a gift.


I am not 100% sure what you mean by that statement, so I am not trying to bust your chops. However, the books were done from 1978 - 1982. I have all five of them, so I know what I speak of. Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo was selling them long before 1991. There was a fellow black belt that trained with me from the late Master Al Rubin, who once said in front of me (speaking to Al Rubin) "I want to get those five San Soo books from Jimmy." This was the first time I had heard of them, and I asked Al Rubin about them. Obviously, this had to be before Al Rubin's untimely demise in 1987. From this conversation I learned of the five books; and then shortly thereafter, purchased the five books via Al Rubin from Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo. I guess what I am trying to say is that Master Carl Lorenzen had given permission to Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo to sell those books as he (Jimmy) saw fit.
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Kung-Fu San Soo 24/7!

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:02 pm

Eric Thomson wrote:From: eric_thomson 10/4/2002 9:10 pm
To: San Soo Sifu (SanSooSifu) (5 of 5)
238.5 in reply to 238.4

You are probably right, Jon. I am repeating the story as I remember it from my instructors. Mind you, they did not sit down and tell it to me all at once, either. This has just been from conversations that I have had with them over the last four years. Also, Carl Lorenzen had a lot more stuff than just what is in those five books. Mark Colby has about 4 or 5 really fat 3 ring binders (the ones' that are about 5 or 6 inches wide); these are copies of Carl Lorenzen's notes (e.g., stuff not in the instruction manuals; especially, different ways to link together forms, and how to use different weapons). I know that Carl Lorenzen was trying to record everything that Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo showed him, in order to preserve the art. I am not sure, but I think Carl Lorenzen made copies of these notebooks for Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo, too. I am not sure what happened to them, but if Jimmy H. Woo had them, then they are probably in a box at Bernice Chin Woo's. If I had the time and money, I would love to just go over everything that Carl Lorenzen gave Mark Colby and Scott Pemberton, and rewrite using Western anatomical, kinesthetic, and physics terms. Man that would really be something! Alas, that will probably never happen unless I hit it big in the lottery, and then give the money to Mark Colby and Scott Pemberton, so that we could all do Kung-Fu San Soo 24/7!
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Kung-Fu San Soo Instructional Manuals

Postby realkungfusansoo » Sat Nov 15, 2008 11:10 am

The five black belt instructor's books that many of you have in your possession are of extremely great value. They were compiled primarily by my instructor, Master Carl L. Lorenzen. The first book starts with some of the forms that were taught earlier on. The first 12 of the Basic 45 were written by Carl Lorenzen, and 13 - 45 were written by Russell Williams. The 200 attack techniques were also written by Russell Williams, and were included illustrating early lessons, which I am not exactly sure of their origin.

Books 2 - 4 were written primarily by Carl Lorenzen, and included forms along with Fut Ga techniques that were taught by Jimmy H. Woo to him in his garage between the years of 1977 and 1984. The forms in each book are directly related to the Fut Ga lessons in the same book. Jimmy H. Woo was working through different sections of his Chinese monastery books, and was teaching concepts and series sets, which were cohesive in the principles applied.

Jimmy H. Woo told Carl Lorenzen that the 5 books cover about 40 - 50 % of what was in his Chinese monastery books. The earlier lessons that Jimmy H. Woo taught were other areas within the Chinese books. If one pays attention to the language used in Kung-Fu San Soo in regards to the principle of motion, one can easily see how all the lessons are to be combined, and used together to effectively use the art.

If anyone doubts that the Chinese books exist my instructor, Master Carl L. Lorenzen, told me that he personally saw them and looked inside at the Chinese characters on the pages. I trust his word, and the fact that the structure of the art supports this reality.

The early lessons, such as: Ah Soo, Top Ga, Nam Pai, and others can also be used together with the Fut Ga and other attack lessons.

Old San Soo and content from the 5 books should be looked at as one unit coming from one source, and seen as one whole system that fits together like a language does; using all the elements of the given language.

Understand that the 5 books written by Carl Lorenzen are just part of Kung-Fu San Soo, but they are a significant portion.
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Kung-Fu San Soo Instructional Manuals

Postby realkungfusansoo » Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:15 pm

I noticed a typo error in my last post. In books # 2 - 5, not 2 - 4, it was Carl Lorenzen who wrote them exclusively. Some years later Bernice Chin Woo asked Carl Lorenzen to put together book # 6; to include the final information from the private lessons in Carl Lorenzen's garage with Jimmy H. Woo. Carl Lorenzen did not provide that material. Later on Russell Williams wrote a book, which included that information. It has 10 forms, and 80 Fut Ga techniques.

Many people have various notes from different periods in Kung-Fu San Soo's history. My notes from Carl Lorenzen are much broader than the 5 black belt instructional manuals, and covers a much longer time period. I use them in all my classes to provide a more complete perspective.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby San Soo Sifu » Thu May 21, 2015 4:32 pm

Preserving San Soo - No More Van - Vanessa wrote:These books were given by Master Carl Lorenzen, and made into PDF format by his students.

J.P. King was just a recipient at one of Carl Lorenzen's seminars where Carl made them available. Many have had these on PDF format thanks to Carl, and his students, for the last 4 or 5 years.

J.P. King has received these, as others did, and is now passing them out after 4 to 5 years of sitting on them.

No offense, but the thanks and recognition should go to Carl who wrote them, and his students who made them free on PDF format.

Books # 6 and 7 are also available from Master Russell Williams. Many do not even know these exist.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Thu May 21, 2015 10:32 pm

I have run into No More Van before when she was bad mouthing me behind my back (she drank JP's Kool-Aid); so I found out she was something like a rent a cop guard for the Sheriff, every one thought she was law enforcement. She seems to have a big mouth, let's look at what she is really saying. What I have heard, I have no first hand knowledge, but I believe my source to be solid. She was in JP's corner until recently when she had JP move out, JP supposedly told her that he was the leader of Kung-Fu San Soo, and he wanted all of her San Soo material returned. He is in charge of nothing, it has been over 24 years since Jimmy died, JP has done nothing except cry, "Woe is me, everyone has turned on me," as he pockets the money people have sent for goods they have not received. When Bernie copyrighted Carl's books I told him and he could not believe that she would do that. Carl recently told me in her last printing she had his initials removed from each page, I wonder why. So now NMV says JP sat on them 3 or 4 years, WOW, is he giving them for free (which I doubt) or is he making money off someone else's work, and did he get permission from Carl first?
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:01 pm

I thought I knew what these were but thought I would contact Carl to see what he knew. Bernie never fails to amaze me in her quest for profit without substance. Here is his response.

Ron, these books were written by me and changed by Bernie and sold as if they are originals. My books did not have any stamps on them = Jimmy's signature...She took off all my initials and dates. I put these on so you can organize the lessons with the forms. Not knowing the art she mixed things up...I authored everything in the books (Covers, drawings, everything from cover to cover) I have all the old drawings, notes, etc. I used to put them together.
Carl
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:14 pm

Don't you guys have an opinion or something important/interesting to say, I see information that comes up that needs to be straightened out, I go directly to the source to get the info and nobody seems to give a crap, I get more feedback from my dog. Many complain about there being few posts here, you are the problem, who cars about the color of belts your school uses or other meaningless things. You still have a few people left who studied old/new, lessons you have never seen etc. You spend time listening to" know nothings" who bought a book, we were there, does that count. I offered many times to critique videos, technique lessons and tell you why. No one says crap, so you guys are the reason this forum gets few posts. Those who have the knowledge become disinterested when they use their time to pass on real facts and no one even mentioned that they read it. Did you read between the lines in Carl's note where (you know who) took his books and erased his initials changed some things, he also said she did not understand the Art (which I agree}, I think I read they are $100 each.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:57 pm

As a newly minted 2nd degree black belt - ok, I don't know how that's relevant, but perhaps offers some perspective on my apparent lack of knowledge.

I do have a few questions I guess:

Who is No More Van? I don't know who you are referring to.

I've never questioned that Carl wrote the books (I have a copy of book 1 that I got back in the early 90's), and from what I've always heard is that Bernice strove to capitalize on the Art. So that is no surprise there.

I guess my question is after seeing Carl's comments is in regard to mixing things up, were actual lessons altered, or just the order in which they were listed? The dates corresponding to the forms would have been useful, as it never occurred to me that they were taught that way. I guess the way I learned forms in the past was disjointed in the sense that the form we learned had more to do with that's a form the instructor knew vs. what lessons we were being taught in class at that moment in time. That's pretty interesting, and I would like to know more about that.

My last question regarding the books have to do with the basic 45. Carl's version of the basic 45 seems much different than pretty much every other version out there. I've always wondered why, but never knew. Some are shortened, and others are completely different. Was this due to Bernice editing the lessons, or just Carl's take on them?
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:39 am

Pappa,
Your post confuses me, "Who is No More Van? I don't know who you are referring to.", how did she get into this and then I don't understand if the "referring" is connected to that question. I can answer it if I understand what you are asking? I did not read Carl's version, I know what was taught, we burned them into our brain (many did not) so if this sounds arrogant but I am right, even Jack's are mixed up which bothers me but it is what it is. People have complained that there are not enough to photos in my 45 book. I saw the 45 were being perverted many years ago, I wrote that book to preserve then not necessarily to teach them, my mistake. I am currently working on doing them on video but I am getting older and will need help on a couple moves as my balance is a little off from a recent minor stroke but my eyes and brain are still intact but few will believe that. heh heh
After you make your question clear I can answer, I am pressed for time today but I will answer.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:04 pm

Ron G wrote:I have run into No More Van before when she was bad mouthing me behind my back (she drank JP's Kool-Aid); so I found out she was something like a rent a cop guard for the Sheriff, every one thought she was law enforcement. She seems to have a big mouth, let's look at what she is really saying. What I have heard, I have no first hand knowledge, but I believe my source to be solid. She was in JP's corner until recently when she had JP move out, JP supposedly told her that he was the leader of Kung-Fu San Soo, and he wanted all of her San Soo material returned. He is in charge of nothing, it has been over 24 years since Jimmy died, JP has done nothing except cry, "Woe is me, everyone has turned on me," as he pockets the money people have sent for goods they have not received. When Bernie copyrighted Carl's books I told him and he could not believe that she would do that. Carl recently told me in her last printing she had his initials removed from each page, I wonder why. So now NMV says JP sat on them 3 or 4 years, WOW, is he giving them for free (which I doubt) or is he making money off someone else's work, and did he get permission from Carl first?
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:05 pm

^^^ This is the post I was referring to
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:16 pm

Carl's 1-4
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:04 am

NMV was originally (I think) from a Bakersfield school, seems to get around, knows it all, I am not going to name her last friend, she is not someone I want to know.
I would adjust some possible outcomes on lesson #1,no big deal. I am not going to break them all down, that's why I wrote the book, I have much to finish and time is getting short. There is more forgotten in this Art than most know. I try to get info out but no one seems to care or they already think they know.
#3 Most have never learned this one right including the Woolsey clan, as he grabs you clamp his hand to your chest, you high down windmill hitting the inside of that wrist, your windmill wrist is bent out and that hooks his wrist. The holding of the hand and the follow through force of that windmill snaps that arm out to his left which opens him up for the strike to the heart. Most can not figure why they are not lined up for the punch so they switch to the next move (grab to the throat) then the strike to the heart which changes a smooth move (look at #3 in Hulsey's book). The other thing they miss is after the wrist pops out and you continue the flow on your right side to a figure 8 type movement which allows for a powerful strike to the heart without cocking.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:47 pm

I agree about lesson 3. I don't know if I'm even doing it right now.

I'm particularly interested in lessons 4, 7, 6, and 9. They seem very different from everybody elses.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:47 pm

Lesson 9
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:27 pm

5 & 9 are complex, technical and include timing, there is much explanation needed here, you could never get the nuances without seeing them. Much can be explained and when I can I will write them down, many Instructors have really slaughtered lesson 9, but then we should move out of the 45 and discuss tactics, etc.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:05 pm

Thank you, that would be great.

But I am also interested as to why Carl's versions of lessons 4, 6, 7, and 9 seem to be very different to the way everybody else seems to do them?

If you look at the basic 45 posted on the forum which is a consensus of various master's versions, you can easily see the difference:

Basic 45 (+ 6)
Lesson # 4

4) Opponent throws a left straight punch.

1. Step to the outside of his left foot with your left foot forward, block and hold with a left up windmill.
2. Step in with your right foot, and strike the back of his left elbow with your right forearm, at a perpendicular angle. This will break his elbow.
3. Left one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his front right rib cage (above his liver).
4. Right one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his left kidney.
5. Left one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his solar plexus.
6. Shift your weight onto your left foot, right kick to his left knee cap.

Basic 45 (+ 6)
Lesson # 6

6) Opponent throws a left straight punch.

1. Step inside with your right foot forward, block with a right up windmill.
2. Right horizontal sweeping claw across his eyes.
3. Right back hand forearm to his throat.
4. Left one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his front right rib cage (above his liver).
5. Right one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his heart.
6. Left one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his solar plexus.
7. Right (fore) four-knuckle roundhouse punch (palm down) to the left side of his neck (junction of his ear and jaw).

Basic 45 (+ 6)
Lesson # 7

7) Opponent throws a left straight punch.

1. Step in with your left foot forward, block with a horizontal left up windmill (rising straight overhead) shield block (deflecting his left arm up, and exposing his left rib cage).
2. Step to the outside of his left foot with your right foot; shift horses, right one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his back left rib cage (near his left kidney).
3. Shift horses, left one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his front left rib cage (near his heart).
4. Right one-knuckle straight punch into the center (middle) of his left rib cage.
5. Left one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his solar plexus.
6. Shift your weight onto your left foot, right kick to his left knee cap.

Basic 45 (+ 6)
Lesson # 9

9) Opponent throws a left straight punch.

1. Step to the outside of his left foot with your right foot forward, block with a left lead double windmill cross block (moving his left hand down in a circle and back to the outside; using both of your hands).
2. Right heel of palm, up under his nose.
3. Step in with your left foot between his stance (legs), left open web hand to his throat.
4. Step in with your right foot between his stance (legs), right hammer fist to the left side of his jaw.
5. Right back hand hammer fist to his nose.
6. Left one-knuckle roundhouse punch to his front right rib cage (or his solar plexus).
7. Shift horses, right back hand down hammer fist to his groin.
8. Shift horses, left uppercut punch to his throat.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:57 pm

I don't have my books with me as I am at my cabin and I won't be back for a few days. Carl's are generally correct (from my memory) but lack the how and whys. The others I have no Idea and I really don't want to spend time reading them because I still know what was taught. Many instructors did not write or learn them, they mixed things up which is unfair to their students. I am going to do #9 but I don't want to spend time breaking the rest down again and again. My main purpose is to show how much has not been passed on. The more you try to compare the different views of the 45 the more you will be confused. I gave JP a copy of my 45 book and told him that they were correct, guess he did not believe me. He never learned them from Jimmy so he took 7 versions thinking he would be smart enough to put them together correctly, wrong. What he showed was hard to watch and very sad.The typed version you sent #9 first part I believe is wrong, I could not follow the first movement.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:00 am

PS I don't like to use open jabs, it is almost impossible to roundhouse block a jab.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:29 pm

This lesson was written down over 30 years ago from my shorter notes in the early 60's.
Lesson #9

Opponent punches with his left hand toward your head…
Step into opponent with a right front horse (in front of his left foot) as you deliver a double down windmill, blocking the top of his fist or arm, moving it down. What is meant by a “Double Down Windmill” is the same type of windmill you use in your windmill practice. Like two propellers rotating but in synchronization – one passes the center shortly after the other has just passed. This is very important as the right hand blocks his left hand down, followed by your left down windmill passing in front of his face, taking his attention which is the set-up for your next strike.
The follow up is a right upward palm to his nose. Use caution on this type of strike as it could cause him to hemorrhage and result in death. You may change your target to the jaw or chin, if you wish. The strike after the windmill appears to be one continuous movement.
Left open web hand to his throat.
Right hammer to his left jaw.
Right backhand to his throat.
Left roundhouse one-knuckle fist to the right side of his neck.

Concepts to Learn
Lesson #9

In this lesson you will learn…
This technique contains many subtle superior fighting techniques.
Suppose your opponent strikes with a left punch followed up by a right punch. You will be protected by a double down windmill unless your opponent uses “Broken Rhythm”, which is highly unlikely. The synchronization of that windmill is almost exactly the speed an attacker will throw two punches. When the left is blocked down by your right his right hand fires. Your left hand blocks that punch down as you right palm to his face. Try it with a partner – it works.
The other benefit previously discussed is deception and the application of the element of surprise.
This is the first time any strike travels up the center and is hidden behind your lead hand with the palm traveling up and over your lead hand. He watches your left hand as you down windmill. The palm travels up the middle line of his body and he can’t see if he is looking straight ahead.
Try this before you begin the lesson: Look straight ahead and touch your stomach and then raise that hand to your chin – can’t see it, can you? You have just found a blind area. This is the reason to keep his eyes busy with the left down windmill as the palm hand moves up the blind area pops over to strike him in the nose. Another way of using the blind area is to use a single left down windmill as you move in and as your left is in front of his face strike with a right uppercut close to his body (up the centerline) under his chin, he will never see what knocks him out. (that is from another lesson)
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:45 pm

Well, I broke down this lesson as an experiment to see how many people were interested, Barbara went to the trouble of retyping to make them easy to read (a lot of work). I believe it has been broken down farther than anything you have seen. One guy has responded, and I am not doing this work for one guy. I don't know why no one is interested but I refuse to waste my time. I think your best course is to buy the Red Book and learn the deeper things. Ha
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:11 am

Thank you for the analysis.

You version (sorry to call it that) is yet different than the two versions posted above.

When I originally got this lesson from Ben Roe III (not his Dad, but he got the lesson at the same time his Dad did), I got it with the double down windmill as a simultaneous right and left down windmill (coming from opposite directions) with the left out front covering and the right doing the blocking and clearing. The punches that followed were similar to yours Ron, but I forgot the exact order. That version seems very similar to what you described, Ron.

Where I currently train (Dale Garrison), it is yet a different version than any of the ones previously listed. Here is the lesson, with my comments in parenthesis:

Opponent throws a left punch to the face
1. Step in with the right foot slightly to the outside of his left foot, and use a double down windmill to block the punch. (The double down windmill is more like a left arm short upwindmill/parry as you shift your body to the left, and a right down windmill/cross block. So you essentially have both arms swinging together, starting from the right side moving towards the left. This seems similar to the version posted here on American San Soo Basic 45 (+6).)
2. Strike with a right back palm to the face. (because you blocked to the left, your right hand is in a position to come back as a back hand type palm instead of a straight palm to the face)
3. Left cup (web hand) to the throat
4. Right hammer blow to the jaw
5. Left roundhouse to the right ribs
6. Right reverse hammer to the groin while shifting into a left half horse stance away from the opponent
7. Right cross or uppercut to the throat while shifting in a right half horse towards the opponent

So Carl's version is yet different than everybody else's, but seems to have the same double down windmill that you described, Ron.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:16 am

I now understand the reason for the double down windmill that you described, Ron. I never liked it when I first learned it, because the timing was tricky, and I struggled to clear the punch effectively with my right down windmill sometimes. So when I learned the new version, I liked it better because it was easier and I was moving my body offline from the punch. But now I get the purpose of the lesson with the double down windmill and the advanced concepts of distraction while blocking and countering.

I'm going to have to work on that.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:23 pm

Papa,
First, it is not my version, it is what Jimmy taught. Do not use anything Dale Garrison teaches with good San Soo as I feel he is one of the worst instructors I have seen and has no grasp on the Art. He is from Woolsey but tries to hide that. He uses other older instructors to teach at his seminars to add some talent there. He latches on to instructors who wrote books, done videos, or really have deeper knowledge until they see through him. He tries to ride on other people's shirt tails due to his lack of depth. I was going to do some business with him but my gut told me to back off. Mike Rockwell told me of a several year battle over videos he has had with him. He has me and several instructors blocked from his forum, when I tried to correct something, he wrote back, "get lost Ron". Even though I know you did not mean it to be, it is an insult to be compared to what he teaches, I thought you were smarter than that. I know I am not well liked because I call things like they are and am blunt about it, like it or not, I don't have time for BS. If you can find anyone I have lied to about San Soo, let me know. I believe you are sincere in your search, just be careful who you listen to which includes some of First Generation. Good Luck.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:30 pm

I don't mean to insult you by saying "your version," but I am just objectively pointing out that there are numerous masters out there with the basic 45, and they all seem to be a bit different. The premise of the basic 45 +6 on here is to analyze the various versions floating out there from various masters (Including you), and come up with a consensus because there are so many differences noted. I know Dale's version is similar to the Woolsey line (which is also rampant on this forum), but I don't have any ill will towards their lessons as they do work, just differently - in my opinion.

My original question is why are Carl's lessons so vastly different than other people's versions? Especially since he is an OG Master under Jimmy (as you are). I'm not into the politics of the san soo community, but I really want to know the reasons for the discrepancies in the lessons. Did he purposely abbreviate or change the lessons for some particular reason? Are they called Dap'ga techniques in order to differentiate them from the basic 45 as alternative lessons? Or is that the way he got them from Jimmy, and did Jimmy have his own reason for changing them?
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:21 am

You are chasing your tail and will never catch it. This is not politics it is about what is right or wrong. I know Masters who wasted 30/40 years going from Master to Master and are as confused as when they started. I told you about Dale, do you think I made it up, go talk to Mike Rockwell. People always tell you that they stay out of politics and that is an excuse not to engage a wrong/person.
Go ask the person about his version, the hows and whys of how it is used and if you like it, use it. If you don't understand it and he can't show you, he probably does not understand it. Not up to me to explain Carl, go ask him, he will talk to you. OK, wasted time because I feel we are right back where we started.
See ya
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Well, you asked for questions, and I gave you some. Sorry that you didn't like them.

Unfortunately, I don't know Carl, so I probably won't be able to ask him.

I don't have your book on the basic 45, so I can't ask you any specific questions about them I guess.

Thanks for your analysis on lesson #9. That was helpful.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:57 pm

I expected some real technical questions, high level stuff to help people but it always seems it evolves to comparing versions and the lack of understanding good San Soo from poor. If you could see the current San Soo to what was taught, it would also bother you. Politics always comes up, tell me what politics are in our Art. I fought Bernie and her attys. because she had a copyright on the term San Soo and we could not use it without her permission. I proved that it was like one might copyright boxing or karate, San Soo is a word for combat but in Chinese. I backed them down (they hate me for it today), so is that politics to fight for what you believe. I dislike people who will not stand up for themselves, we have many. You were the only one who had interest enough to post, if you really want to know things, I would be happy to share but I just don't want to discuss the people who don't know what they are talking about. If you want to talk about San Soo tactics send me a PM and I will send my number, if it is toll, I can call you back, posting has become very dissatisfying.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby bigpappa » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:48 pm

In my mind, my questions were technical in the sense that I was trying to reconcile discrepancies. For example, one version of Lesson #4 has an arm breaker, and the other one doesn't. Its a very big difference in the structure of the lesson, and what it's designed to achieve. The targets in the lessons seem to be very carefully thought out, and usually the gist of the lessons tend to be pretty similar but some are way off. I'm not doing a direct comparison of Ah Soo lessons to the basic 45, as I expect there to be some big differences, but basic 45 vs basic 45.

I think what I'll do is buy your book, Ron, and go over those lessons before I contact you. That way I can have a better understanding of the material before I start asking more detailed questions about the basic 45.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:43 pm

Ah Soo is the 45 (somewhat changed), Frank wanted to pull away from the pack, that was what got him kicked out. He made a big deal about getting expensive/private lessons after he pulled away from the class. He got a short private lesson before we went in on Saturday, Jimmy laughed and told us that he got the same lesson as us but paid him $100. My sister stopped in to watch his class (he did not know who she was) she asked about Jimmy, he told her that he and Jimmy learned at the same school in Hong Kong.
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Re: Black Belt Instructional Books

Postby Ron G » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:28 pm

Pappa,
I will offer you a deal since you were the only one to respond, I sometimes make a mistake (heh heh), when I am signing books, I may misspell a word or maybe over scribble my name so I knock the price down. I have two, 1 history and myths of San Soo ($24,95), 1 Basic 45 ($19.95) plus tax and $6.00 shipping. They are unused/brand new, I would take $15 each plus $6.00 dollars shipping, total $36.00. This is our real history, if you don't want them it will become the first to respond. 4 is a break or elbow snap, I have a whole paragraph on how to do it violently.
Let me know either way. If you want a different one, let us know, even if you buy from Amazon it still comes through us. sansoojournal.com
RG
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