Analysis of Police Use-of-Force Data

San Soo and its applicability to extreme confrontations...

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Analysis of Police Use-of-Force Data

Postby San Soo Sifu » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:38 pm

Frost wrote:Why... he has a valid point when did you last see trapping / arm-control being used in a real fight?


San Soo Sifu wrote:I have seen it all the time for the last 20 + years on a little show called "COPS."

Granted, not all Police Officers have the skills. However, those that do put in the extra effort and training, and work things like Aikido or Japanese Jujitsu, Kali lock flow drills, and/or Chinese Chin-Na into their arresting/hand-cuffing techniques pull it off ALL the time. 20 + years of video clips can attest to that fact.

Unless of course, you want to make the argument that a law enforcement officer making a lawful arrest based upon probable cause against a suspect isn't "a real fight?"

P.S. Those "suspects" are usually resisting... as in resisting arrest!



San Soo Sifu wrote:After 20 + years of being on television, you are absolutely 100% correct; in the fact that, at times, it does go down as 2, or 3, or more law enforcement officers arresting and hand-cuffing 1 suspect.

After 20 + years of being on television, you are absolutely 100% correct; in the fact that, at times, it becomes clinch, takedown, roll the suspect over, and arrest and hand-cuff him.

However, after 20 + years of being on television, I am absolutely 100% correct; in the fact that, at times, one law enforcement officer (usually a county deputy sheriff, because sometimes their back-up is 30-45 minutes away) has to deal with a suspect, and the suspect is full-on resisting arrest (as you said, "the other guy trying to take their head off"); and the law enforcement officer uses an arm-locking techniques (of some type), slams the suspect's head onto the police cruiser's hood, arrests him and applies the hand-cuffs.

So, after 20 + years of being on television, "COPS" has seen its fair-share of all types of scenarios.

And, as I said in my previous post, not all law enforcement officers have the skills (i.e., they don't devote enough off-time to training arresting/hand-cuffing techniques, either through their law enforcement department or a local martial arts school).

Anyway, I am sure if you actually asked a majority of law enforcement professionals across America, most of them would attest to using arm-locking (of some type), flowing into hand-cuffing, and placing the suspect under arrest. And yes, against 100% full-bore resisting arrest (as you said, "the other guy trying to take their head off") individuals.


San Soo Sifu wrote:Your point of reference isn't the same as mine (or a majority of those of us who have trained law enforcement officers / criminal justice professionals here in America). We will just have to agree to disagree.


Analysis of Police Use-of-Force Data

Highest Level of Force Used

The next analysis involved determining the highest level of officer force used in each incident compared with the level of resistance of the suspect. This analysis provides another way to determine if the level of the officer force is consistent with the level of the suspect?s resistance. When there is no resistance by the suspect, most officers used only talking (8%), handcuffing (65%), and wrist-arm-locks (27%) (see Table 16). However, three officers used a firearm. When the suspects used slight resistance there were a few deviations, but most officers used talking, handcuffing, or wrist-arm-locks (altogether 90%). There were a few takedowns (3%), one striking of a suspect, and six uses of a firearm (6%). However, when suspects resisted at a level determined as moderate or high, less than half of the officers only used talking, handcuffing, or wrist-arm-locks as their highest level of force (48%). Finally, when suspect resistance was violent or explosive, all officers went beyond talking, and handcuffing. Only four officers listed wrist-arm-lock as the highest level of force used against the suspect (24%). The most frequently used type of force was a take-down (29%). This was followed by striking the suspect (18%), wrestling the suspect (12%), and using a baton (12%). Only one officer used a firearm (6%).

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/183648.pdf


So, even when the suspect was violent or explosive; law enforcement still used handcuffing & wrist-armlocks 24% of the time, which is only 5% less than the take-downs listed at 29%.

So, much for the nay-saying, Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) groupies out there, who don't know or understand real-life facts & statistics because they are too busy typing in their mother's basement. :roll:

We wouldn't want the facts to skew their perception of reality, now would we?
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Postby Captain America » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:25 am

Jeez Triple S... you definitely do your homework!

Thank you again for being the primary driver of the "Monster Truck of San Soo Forums" -- the American San Soo Forum

If we weren't allies, then my only recourse would be to challenge you to a fight... or to make a loathsome phone call.

-------------

I remember having a conversation years ago with Robert and Dave about their experiences as bouncers at the Long Beach Yardhouse back in the day, (Dave still dabbles as a cooler on occasion) and here are a couple of things to back up the studies you cite from strictly non-scientific experiences at the Yardhouse.....

With respect to using the arm (or once in a while --- the fingers) of the customer that needed to continue to have a pleasant evening elsewhere: that was the most used form of crowd control. Dave (at about 6'3" and 280 lbs.) was especially good at getting the individual way up on his toes with a wrist/arm/shoulder lock as he (or rarely, she) was escorted to the door.

Joint locks were occasionally used to get the individual down for the rare, but actual handcuffing, while the Long Beach Police were summoned to to continue the conversation.

------------------------

One minor anecdote and one more impressive anecdote to support the research you did SSS...

Dave recounts the time that a resisting customer was grabbed by the fingers as he reached for Robert and screwed into the pavement with those same fingers between the Yardhouse and Tequila Jack's, and cuffed. That customer probably wishes he had reached for one of the other bouncers who were around him at that moment... (this is the minor anecdote.)

The more impressive control technique was employed by Big Dave during a small melee on the Yardhouse patio dining area one evening...

A young man, weighing about 210 lbs., was engaged in a physical with three of Dave's bouncing crew... they went crashing to the deck and Big John (about 350 lbs) ended up on top of the guys back... At which point the gentleman who didn't want to go home early simply did a push up with John on him. Strong guy? I'd guess "yes." It turned out when all was said and done that the guy had been a very good collegiate wrestler.

Anyway, before things were said and done, Dave had come from the front of the Yardhouse, quickly assessed the mess and had just watched the powerful push up... so he reached down and grabbed the guys thumb, and manipulated him up out of the then squirming pile, "lifted" the guy to his feet, and using the thumb leverage as a handle for the arm lock, pinned the guy against the patio fence. The guy was, shall we say, begging for Dave to lighten up the thumb and arm lock. A few of the guy's buddies who were also enjoying the physical festivities as participants in the evening's melee, approached Dave and in a not so nice manner told Dave to let their friend go. Dave had one side to the guy he had pinned against the fence and his free hand and side facing the just mentioned gentlemen. Dave told them that maybe they didn't want to come at him, if they had any concern for their friends appendage, and Dave also mentioned that he had a free hand to play with them as well. The guys' friend agreed with Dave by telling his buddies to keep the "F" back... I guess a little pain compliance goes a long way...

Dave shortly thereafter asked the gentleman if he was willing to depart the Yardhouse, without any more nonsense, and the former wrestler said "yes." As things settled down, the wrestler dude commented that he had NEVER felt anything like that.

He (and his buddies) did leave, and did not restart anything on the way out.

As I mentioned, these and numerous other incidents recounted by my buddies are definitely NOT scientific proof of anything.

---------------

I do find it interesting that joint locks were a big big part of the tools used to restore the peace. Remember, the job description calls for control and not maiming. The perfect arena for the joint locks of "New San Soo."

And with respect to the notion that most fights or physicals go to the ground... that concept is fudged a bit by the proponents of grappling sometimes. This may be discussed at length at a future time, but to very briefly touch on it, consider this...

It's true that a physical will often have at least one person go to the ground, but when someone is taken to the ground by a "hands on" technique, and cuffed up, that does not really equal the image conjured up by the concept that "90 percent of all fights end up on the ground."

That's playing with the words. "Ground fighting" is not equal to "ground grappling," and "stand-up grappling" is not equal to "ground grappling" either.

Just a thought...
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Postby San Soo Sifu » Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:44 pm

Hey Captain,
(And, anyone else willing to read with an open-mind)...

What prompted those initial posts of mine (on another message board) is because of the recurring chants of the Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) sycophants.

You know... eye gouges don't work. Until, of course, you add up just how many MMA fighters could no longer continue because of an accidental eye poke.

You know... spinning back-fists don't work. Unless, of course, you count UFC 31 when Shonie Carter knocked out Matt Serra with a spinning back-fist.

You know... those soccer (oblique) kicks to the upper shin area / lower knee cap (patella) don't work. Unless, of course, you have watched WEC events lately. In late 2009, I noticed a trend on WEC; that the soccer (oblique) kick was making its debut as an attempt to be successfully pulled off (I believe it might have been Carlos Condit making the attempt). Then, on UFC 89, I saw Brandon Vera land a kick against Keith Jardine. It appeared that Brandon Vera may have damaged Keith Jardine's knee with a kick in the second round. Finally (not spelled "finely"), on The Ultimate Fighter Season 11; Kyacey Uscola connects with one that causes Kris McCray to wince in pain. Here is what Kris McCray said...


Kris McCray wrote:Fight started out and that push to my knee hurt. Badly. It hurt to put even a little weight on it. I got to let the initial pain wear-off while I went to work on his legs. My knee was tweaked from the push kick, but it wasn't hurt so bad that I couldn't fight hard.


So, now you have the Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) basement groupies claiming that arm-locks (and by their extension, handcuffing / arresting techniques); i.e., ones found in Aikido, Chin Na, Jujitsu, etc., don't work against other people fighting back, hard. You know, because one of their MMA Superheros haven't pulled it off yet in a competition. Ergo, it must not work; or be a valid training tool to sharpen.

So, I pointed out that COPS (the television show) has been on for over 20 + years; and there is plenty of video clips showing it to work. But, common-sense evidence falls upon deaf ears.

Plus, my common-sense response about seeing all types of possible scenarios playing out on COPS for over 20 + years falls upon deaf ears. Yes, law enforcement professionals will use overwhelming numbers... if possible. Sometimes, it isn't possible. Yes, you will see... clinch, takedown, roll over, arm-bar, handcuffs, "you're under arrest."

However, that doesn't invalidate my point. In fact, I found research to back it up.

(I guess my common-sense logic approach + 20 years of COPS video clips isn't enough to persuade basement dwelling MMA sycophants the reality of life.)

As I tell my students, even high kicks can work in a real street fight. However, you must do a few things first...

1. Develop your flexibility (stretching).
2. Develop your ability (work on your kicks).
3. Develop your proper distance (know the length of your legs).
4. Develop your proper timing (knowing when is the right moment).
5. Develop your internal testicular fortitude (having the cojones to simply go for it)!
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Re: Analysis of Police Use-of-Force Data

Postby unstpabl1 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:48 pm

Frost wrote:Why... he has a valid point when did you last see trapping / arm-control being used in a real fight?


People sometimes have different paradigms and definitions of terms; because of their personal frames of reference it is hard to find common ground.

Trapping to me, and to most of the MMA guys I have talked to, is Wing Chun trapping; as well as Escrima and Silat. Their point is valid in this, to date based on the inability of anyone to effectively use it in high level MMA matches. In truth, at least in the West via YouTube videos of fights, you don't see much of this type of trapping. It all ends up looking like kickboxing.

Just because the point is valid doesn't mean that it's the ultimate truth in combat, or that trapping isn't a effective strategy as there may be a few reasons for it. Boxing structure may be easier to learn, most street fighters aren't trained, MMA rules may be restrictive or favor one style, traditional training focuses may be based on art not conflict... yadda, yadda, yadda.

Personally, I am torn on what to believe about trapping. I played in it a bit, but I hadn't seen it be real effective against a boxing / kickboxing structure. The Wing Chun guys had a particularly hard time against hooks and roundhouses in matches I watched at House Of Champions.

But then, the instructor made it work on the Wing Chun episode on Fight Quest. Don't think his students did though. So who knows, but a closed mind only sees what it wants to. I am open minded.

Looking at some of the Dog Brothers Gatherings the lock and flow stuff generally disappears at get go. It goes caveman pretty quick. Though Mark Denny is working with MMA guys to make the FMA empty hands stuff work. I have seen it and think he is on to something.

So, MMA guys locked in their own dogma already are pretty skeptical of the term and the concept of trapping. It be a tough sell on one of their forums.

Arm control, as this poster used it, strikes me as odd. MMA guys evolved from Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, pretty much at least modern era. Could it be the term ARM CONTROL he defines differently? Because I see that as joint locks, which have proven themselves in MMA... even though rules prohibit finger locks and such.

I, personally, have doubted wrist locks and Hapkido type throws, using wrist control based on MMA for a long time. Until I saw it done a few times against fully non-compliant opponents. A few times by a Hapkido guy. He did it to me a few times while grappling and a Japanese jujitsu guy. It was an amazing thing to see. I had always thought that the Kung-Fu San Soo concept of softening them up before leverage was the only way to effectively apply the lock or throw... not so with these guys.

I think the rules and goals of MMA tend to diminish the importance of wrist locks in that setting. As well as No-Gi. I know Gracie Jiu-Jitsu teaches them. So these posters stuck in their own reality find it as easy to dismiss like some San Soo'ers dismiss things they might learn from them.

Joint locks can be extremely effective, but they also take a lot of dedication.

I recently did some Systema grappling against a guy my age who did Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. My grappling is limited, and I am still not recovered from the chemotherapy. It was interesting because Systema has the San Soo mentality. I did pretty good and even though he had more Systema training as well, he fell back on the submission mentality, while I was going for eyes, throat, biting, and the fingers. Fingers were, truthfully, my savior.

In many ways MMA is a great thing, because it showed flaws in most peoples training. It cut thru dogma. On the other hand, people now are simply creating new dogma. Throwing the baby out with the bath-water, so to speak.

Right now there is a divide that is hard to cross between MMA type training for the street or Kung-Fu San Soo / WWII combatives type training where because of the targeting you need compliance. More than likely there is something to be learned from both, and the truth is probably in the middle somewhere.

The problem is that forum discussions don't resolve much, in spite of documentation. The cool thing about a forum discussion is the ability for the parties to be able to go back over the thread and re-read the topic. In a conversation most people don't even listen as they are too busy thinking of what to say next.

You cannot change someone's mind; only they can do that. So the most you can expect out of the discussion is that maybe, by having it, you learn something. It ends up being a way of clarifying your own ideas and concepts.
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Postby San Soo Sifu » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:34 am

I forgot to add in my above post the following... and I felt it important enough (historically speaking) to mention it...

You know... biting doesn't work. Unless, of course, you count Evander Holyfield vs Mike Tyson II. Where Mike Tyson not only took a bite out of Evander Holyfield's ear; Tyson took a bite out of Holyfield's other ear. This foul-tactic, of course, threw off Evander Holyfield's game plan. And, as those of us involved in Kung-Fu San Soo all know, sometimes that's all you need. One second to mentally unbalance your opponent, and seize upon that window of opportunity, and follow-up with another debilitating strike, and then another, and then another, and then another... etc.

I do agree with the MMA sycophants that one cannot rely exclusively on foul-tactics to save one's behind. A fighter must have a well-round arsenal at their disposal. Other tools in one's toolbox have their place. It is finding the right balance of what to practice; and what to rely on, when needed... that is the difficult decision that most have to make, because there are only so many hours in the day to train.

But, I have lived a long enough life; and have seen things work with my own eyes, to make-up my own mind as to what works and what doesn't. Or, perhaps, to be more precise; what has the greater percentage chance of working, and what has the lower percentage chance of working.

And, Mike is correct... standing armlocks, armbars, handcuffing techniques do require a lot of training to successfully pull them off in real life situations. However, law enforcement officers, criminal justice workers, and security professionals have no other choice. As, I have stated at least twice now, some simply do NOT devote enough training time to make these type of techniques work. Some do; but they are the minority (unfortunately).

When I worked as a Group Worker 1 at the Marion County Juvenile Detention Center, I worked my arm-locks, arm-bars, pain-compliane holds, and handcuffing techniques a LOT during my off-time (a couple of times being paid while I was presenting in-service workshops to my coworkers on self-defense). The reason being, you cannot simply hit an underage minor. It doesn't matter if that minor is 6' 6" tall, 17 years old, and plays high school football (and why would I be giving such a specific example? ... hmm...). It doesn't look good (from a liability stand-point) to be hitting (striking, punching, kicking) minors.

I also worked as a professional Security Officer at a couple of different hospitals when I lived down in southern California. I had to help doctors and nurses in the Emergency Departments restrain violent patients. Most were on drugs or alcohol; some were just mentally unbalanced. Again, it doesn't look good to be striking patients.

So, I don't have very much patience for basement dwelling, forum trolling, MMA sycophants deciding what does and doesn't work.
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Postby unstpabl1 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:51 pm

Environment is another thing that MMA guys don't really consider. Change the WHERE or the WEAR and tactics must change. In early UFC many wore Gi's because their tactics revolved around them. Now you don't see it at all.

Tactics change if it's a ring or a cage. Where can include the state your fighting in, or the organization, and the rules they impose. No knees, elbows, kicks on the ground. Again, tactics change.

Now it's weight classes, and time limits, and if the fight gets boring they stand them back up. So, tactics change again.

And, it's always 1 on 1. How would their tactics change if it was 4 on 1?

What happens to their tactics if I throw a knife in the middle of the cage?

Your tactics in juvenile detention changed because of the Rules of Engagement.

People seem to need dogma whether it be in MMA, San Soo, or anything else. Everyone knows what doesn't work until their proven wrong with overwhelming evidence that shocks them. Just like the Gracie's shocked the TMA's.

Truthfully, I wish I had 1/2 as much faith in San Soo, as you do Jon. :)
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Postby San Soo Sifu » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:16 pm

Small minor correction here, Mike. It is not Kung-Fu San Soo I have faith in. I have faith in myself. :idea:
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Postby unstpabl1 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:25 pm

Point taken.
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Postby San Soo Sifu » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:36 pm

I ran across this post, in support of the point I was trying to make. I am glad to see that at least one other person "gets it."

Perhaps because they are on a slightly higher plane than what you are used to?

The man (San Soo Sifu) just proved you wrong, and all you can do is attempt to redirect attention. There are a lot of techniques out there that a typical MMA-ists has no hope of making work. Of course, that does not stop you guys from going around and demeaning those very techniques, either!
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Re: What does and doesn't work.

Postby San Soo Sifu » Sun May 01, 2011 12:32 pm

UFC 129
Randy Couture vs. Lyoto Machida

Image

Lyoto Machida knocked out Randy Couture using a front piston, hop kick. The Crane technique from the original Karate Kid movie. Did anyone see the tooth flying out of Randy Couture's mouth when Lyoto Machida landed that kick? I am thinking that is not exactly how Randy Couture wanted to be remembered at his last, retirement fight.

Patrick Smith vs. Rudyard Moncayo in UFC 6. Patrick Smith does a similar running, front, hop kick to Rudyard Moncayo; kicking Rudyard Moncayo approximately solar plexus level, knocking Rudyard Moncayo to the ground, and then Patrick Smith applies a rear naked choke-submission to Rudyard Moncayo at 1:08 for the win.


San Soo Sifu wrote:So, I don't have very much patience for basement dwelling, forum trolling, MMA sycophants deciding what does and doesn't work.
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Pain!

Postby Ron G » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:18 pm

Around 1962 when I first started with Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo, most people appeared to feel pain in roughly the same manner. It was rare to find someone who did not feel pain in certain areas of their body. I observed as time went by that there were more students that did not feel applied pain in some portion(s) of their body. I especially noticed the decline while making numerous arrests when using pain compliance holds on those individuals in the general public. I really don't know why the change, possibly more drugs, pollution, food additives, etc.; but there has been a drastic change (estimate as I saw it) in the 1960's: maybe 3 in 35, and today 3 in 12. They will not react to some pressure points, but will react to others. I did much experimentation with this. The importance is, if you do not see immediate reaction, then you must quickly change-up to another pain compliance / pressure point, or utilize percussionary kicks / strikes. NEVER attempt to reapply your first move, a second time.
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Re: Analysis of Police Use-of-Force Data

Postby Ron G » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:18 pm

I found this that was on point (kind of). It talks about pain perception variations as some are lacking feel, but they do not address it is increasing.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 193428.htm
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Re: Pain!

Postby Captain America » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:56 pm

Ron G wrote:Around 1962 when I first started with Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo, most people appeared to feel pain in roughly the same manner. It was rare to find someone who did not feel pain in certain areas of their body. I observed as time went by that there were more students that did not feel applied pain in some portion(s) of their body. I especially noticed the decline while making numerous arrests when using pain compliance holds on those individuals in the general public. I really don't know why the change, possibly more drugs, pollution, food additives, etc.; but there has been a drastic change (estimate as I saw it) in the 1960's: maybe 3 in 35, and today 3 in 12. They will not react to some pressure points, but will react to others. I did much experimentation with this. The importance is, if you do not see immediate reaction, then you must quickly change-up to another pain compliance / pressure point, or utilize percussionary kicks / strikes. NEVER attempt to reapply your first move, a second time.


NEVER attempt to reapply your first move, a second time.


Master Gatewood makes a valid point that is not only true for LEO use of force/pain compliance but for civilians as well. It is, or should be, taught in a San Soo studio as a standard operating procedure for an up close and personal conflict. (For you MMA and other grappling style aficionados the tactic is a normal procedure.)
With respect to the less occurring pain reactions to pain compliance application by LEOs (remember, Ron was a police officer for many, many years) I don’t think this is due to environmental factors.

I’m a big believer in genetics, and as the article Ron just made reference to in the previous post, scientists have calculated what percentage of the population feels little, moderate, or a lot of pain. And the scientists say it is a genetic pre-disposition. So I respectfully disagree that “drugs, pollution, food additives, etc.” are a major player in coming up with an explanation as to why Ron’s observation is true.

And I do think it is at least generally correct. I don’t know the ratios, but for the sake of argument let’s say Ron’s numbers are accurate.
------------------------------
Consider first that throughout human history life for the vast majority of people has been tough. A lot of work was needed to sustain life. A lot of discomfort and downright pain was endured to survive. Most people who are alive today happily do not have to endure the rigors of our ancestors.
If anything, I would argue that pain tolerance may be less now for the majority of humans, if there is any difference from the past. Genetically we are the same as homo sapien sapiens that lived 50 thousand years ago. (And I think that they were pretty tough folks. Hunting for a living during an ice age and living on the tundra as they did, was no walk in the park.)

Back in 1962, humans were certainly genetically identical to today. Pain tolerances were no different genetically either.
So why the apparent change.

Here is my educated guess…
When I have applied pain compliance techniques on martial arts NOVICES, or a good old fashioned grappling joint lock, or choke… the novice VERY quickly “taps” out or demonstrates some other seemingly exaggerated negative reaction to the unfamiliar discomfort.Then after learning more, and experiencing more of these types of locks and chokes, etc. the fear, the helplessness of not knowing how to stop it, and the fear of losing itself diminishes with more experience. With experience a greater tolerance to pain and discomfort is relatively quickly achieved.

Back in the sixties grappling arts were not the rage that they are now. Kids, teenagers, and young adults would play neighborhood baseball far more than today, but now there is much more familiarity with grappling among recent generations of young people. And a greater apparent tolerance for pain, even though genetically they are the same as the sixties kids, teenagers, and young adults.

With one possible major exception being some drugs that people who encounter cops use. Some of them lessen feelings of pain, so I will have to grant that such drug usage does play some part in the statistics that Ron describes. The sixties and seventies had more PCP usage and today it is probably more Meth type drugs that cops encounter more frequently.
But don’t discount that Meth or PCP users nowadays have a good chance of having practiced grappling to some degree, even if that practice wasn’t in a formal studio, and was only part of neighborhood grappling contests among friends. Then you have a less fearful of pain compliance person who additionally is high. I wouldn’t want to be a cop nowadays and be in a position of having to arrest one of the more proficient fighters.

The Captain has always considered Police and Bouncer work more difficult when it comes to controlling some moron, as opposed to just San Soo'ing his sorry butt. But their use of force policies are not those of a civilian under fear for his life, and the Police and Bouncers have to restrain, rather than beat up, their targets.

So, in conclusion, some drug usage contributes to enhanced pain resistance… but I think most of the apparent increase in pain tolerance observed by Ron is due more to just plain experience by the morons encountered by the LEOs.
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Re: Analysis of Police Use-of-Force Data

Postby Ron G » Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:47 pm

The stats I quoted were only rough estimates as to the changes I have observed, genetics have a much to do with perception of pain and as I said I don't know why, but with the short time (50 years) I would think if it were genetics that time frame would be very short. I had some Samoan students and noticed that most had high tolerance to pain or they just did not feel it. I ran many tests with them and found many pain compliance techniques did not work on them, they would just look at you. I am sure in that case it was genetics. The Samoan and Black gangs had an on going gang fight that occurred every week end for several weeks (very bloody),
I saw night sticks broken over heads and they did not go down but kept fighting.
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