AmericanSanSoo.net

[San Soo Sifu]

[Captain America]

Jeez Triple S... you definitely do your homework!

Thank you again for being the primary driver of the "Monster Truck of San Soo Forums" -- the American San Soo Forum

If we weren't allies, then my only recourse would be to challenge you to a fight... or to make a loathsome phone call.

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I remember having a conversation years ago with Robert and Dave about their experiences as bouncers at the Long Beach Yardhouse back in the day, (Dave still dabbles as a cooler on occasion) and here are a couple of things to back up the studies you cite from strictly non-scientific experiences at the Yardhouse.....

With respect to using the arm (or once in a while --- the fingers) of the customer that needed to continue to have a pleasant evening elsewhere: that was the most used form of crowd control. Dave (at about 6'3" and 280 lbs.) was especially good at getting the individual way up on his toes with a wrist/arm/shoulder lock as he (or rarely, she) was escorted to the door.

Joint locks were occasionally used to get the individual down for the rare, but actual handcuffing, while the Long Beach Police were summoned to to continue the conversation.

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One minor anecdote and one more impressive anecdote to support the research you did SSS...

Dave recounts the time that a resisting customer was grabbed by the fingers as he reached for Robert and screwed into the pavement with those same fingers between the Yardhouse and Tequila Jack's, and cuffed. That customer probably wishes he had reached for one of the other bouncers who were around him at that moment... (this is the minor anecdote.)

The more impressive control technique was employed by Big Dave during a small melee on the Yardhouse patio dining area one evening...

A young man, weighing about 210 lbs., was engaged in a physical with three of Dave's bouncing crew... they went crashing to the deck and Big John (about 350 lbs) ended up on top of the guys back... At which point the gentleman who didn't want to go home early simply did a push up with John on him. Strong guy? I'd guess "yes." It turned out when all was said and done that the guy had been a very good collegiate wrestler.

Anyway, before things were said and done, Dave had come from the front of the Yardhouse, quickly assessed the mess and had just watched the powerful push up... so he reached down and grabbed the guys thumb, and manipulated him up out of the then squirming pile, "lifted" the guy to his feet, and using the thumb leverage as a handle for the arm lock, pinned the guy against the patio fence. The guy was, shall we say, begging for Dave to lighten up the thumb and arm lock. A few of the guy's buddies who were also enjoying the physical festivities as participants in the evening's melee, approached Dave and in a not so nice manner told Dave to let their friend go. Dave had one side to the guy he had pinned against the fence and his free hand and side facing the just mentioned gentlemen. Dave told them that maybe they didn't want to come at him, if they had any concern for their friends appendage, and Dave also mentioned that he had a free hand to play with them as well. The guys' friend agreed with Dave by telling his buddies to keep the "F" back... I guess a little pain compliance goes a long way...

Dave shortly thereafter asked the gentleman if he was willing to depart the Yardhouse, without any more nonsense, and the former wrestler said "yes." As things settled down, the wrestler dude commented that he had NEVER felt anything like that.

He (and his buddies) did leave, and did not restart anything on the way out.

As I mentioned, these and numerous other incidents recounted by my buddies are definitely NOT scientific proof of anything.

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I do find it interesting that joint locks were a big big part of the tools used to restore the peace. Remember, the job description calls for control and not maiming. The perfect arena for the joint locks of "New San Soo."

And with respect to the notion that most fights or physicals go to the ground... that concept is fudged a bit by the proponents of grappling sometimes. This may be discussed at length at a future time, but to very briefly touch on it, consider this...

It's true that a physical will often have at least one person go to the ground, but when someone is taken to the ground by a "hands on" technique, and cuffed up, that does not really equal the image conjured up by the concept that "90 percent of all fights end up on the ground."

That's playing with the words. "Ground fighting" is not equal to "ground grappling," and "stand-up grappling" is not equal to "ground grappling" either.

Just a thought...

[San Soo Sifu]

Hey Captain,
(And, anyone else willing to read with an open-mind)...

What prompted those initial posts of mine (on another message board) is because of the recurring chants of the Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) sycophants.

You know... eye gouges don't work. Until, of course, you add up just how many MMA fighters could no longer continue because of an accidental eye poke.

You know... spinning back-fists don't work. Unless, of course, you count UFC 31 when Shonie Carter knocked out Matt Serra with a spinning back-fist.

You know... those soccer (oblique) kicks to the upper shin area / lower knee cap (patella) don't work. Unless, of course, you have watched WEC events lately. In late 2009, I noticed a trend on WEC; that the soccer (oblique) kick was making its debut as an attempt to be successfully pulled off (I believe it might have been Carlos Condit making the attempt). Then, on UFC 89, I saw Brandon Vera land a kick against Keith Jardine. It appeared that Brandon Vera may have damaged Keith Jardine's knee with a kick in the second round. Finally (not spelled "finely"), on The Ultimate Fighter Season 11; Kyacey Uscola connects with one that causes Kris McCray to wince in pain. Here is what Kris McCray said...

[unstpabl1]

[San Soo Sifu]

I forgot to add in my above post the following... and I felt it important enough (historically speaking) to mention it...

You know... biting doesn't work. Unless, of course, you count Evander Holyfield vs Mike Tyson II. Where Mike Tyson not only took a bite out of Evander Holyfield's ear; Tyson took a bite out of Holyfield's other ear. This foul-tactic, of course, threw off Evander Holyfield's game plan. And, as those of us involved in Kung-Fu San Soo all know, sometimes that's all you need. One second to mentally unbalance your opponent, and seize upon that window of opportunity, and follow-up with another debilitating strike, and then another, and then another, and then another... etc.

I do agree with the MMA sycophants that one cannot rely exclusively on foul-tactics to save one's behind. A fighter must have a well-round arsenal at their disposal. Other tools in one's toolbox have their place. It is finding the right balance of what to practice; and what to rely on, when needed... that is the difficult decision that most have to make, because there are only so many hours in the day to train.

But, I have lived a long enough life; and have seen things work with my own eyes, to make-up my own mind as to what works and what doesn't. Or, perhaps, to be more precise; what has the greater percentage chance of working, and what has the lower percentage chance of working.

And, Mike is correct... standing armlocks, armbars, handcuffing techniques do require a lot of training to successfully pull them off in real life situations. However, law enforcement officers, criminal justice workers, and security professionals have no other choice. As, I have stated at least twice now, some simply do NOT devote enough training time to make these type of techniques work. Some do; but they are the minority (unfortunately).

When I worked as a Group Worker 1 at the Marion County Juvenile Detention Center, I worked my arm-locks, arm-bars, pain-compliane holds, and handcuffing techniques a LOT during my off-time (a couple of times being paid while I was presenting in-service workshops to my coworkers on self-defense). The reason being, you cannot simply hit an underage minor. It doesn't matter if that minor is 6' 6" tall, 17 years old, and plays high school football (and why would I be giving such a specific example? ... hmm...). It doesn't look good (from a liability stand-point) to be hitting (striking, punching, kicking) minors.

I also worked as a professional Security Officer at a couple of different hospitals when I lived down in southern California. I had to help doctors and nurses in the Emergency Departments restrain violent patients. Most were on drugs or alcohol; some were just mentally unbalanced. Again, it doesn't look good to be striking patients.

So, I don't have very much patience for basement dwelling, forum trolling, MMA sycophants deciding what does and doesn't work.
_________________
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!

[unstpabl1]

Environment is another thing that MMA guys don't really consider. Change the WHERE or the WEAR and tactics must change. In early UFC many wore Gi's because their tactics revolved around them. Now you don't see it at all.

Tactics change if it's a ring or a cage. Where can include the state your fighting in, or the organization, and the rules they impose. No knees, elbows, kicks on the ground. Again, tactics change.

Now it's weight classes, and time limits, and if the fight gets boring they stand them back up. So, tactics change again.

And, it's always 1 on 1. How would their tactics change if it was 4 on 1?

What happens to their tactics if I throw a knife in the middle of the cage?

Your tactics in juvenile detention changed because of the Rules of Engagement.

People seem to need dogma whether it be in MMA, San Soo, or anything else. Everyone knows what doesn't work until their proven wrong with overwhelming evidence that shocks them. Just like the Gracie's shocked the TMA's.

Truthfully, I wish I had 1/2 as much faith in San Soo, as you do Jon.

[San Soo Sifu]

Small minor correction here, Mike. It is not Kung-Fu San Soo I have faith in. I have faith in myself.
_________________
Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!

[unstpabl1]

Point taken.

[San Soo Sifu]

I ran across this post, in support of the point I was trying to make. I am glad to see that at least one other person "gets it."