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Dave Lorenson in his own words (chronological order)

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: Dave Lorenson in his own words (chronological order)

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 5/12/2000 9:08 am
To: ALL (1 of 24)
53.1

Hello Friends,
My name is Dave Lorenson. I currently live in Liberty Hill, South Carolina. I have over 20 years in Kung-Fu San Soo.

Even though I have been involved in San Soo for over 20 some odd years, I have never heard of the Basic 45? So, that is why I am starting this thread. Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of the Basic 45 lessons for my personal notebook? Thank you in advance!

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 5/15/2000 3:25 pm
To: Robert @TMI (rresann) (12 of 24)
53.12 in reply to 53.3

I salute you! Thank you for your prompt and helpful reply. I have been very impressed with you forum, and I am glad to hear that you are helping with the combat training of some of our elite armed forces. I have long thought that this was a good idea, and a few years back tried to talk a police station into putting some of their officers through a short training program. I would love to see one of the videos you put out. Unfortunately, I am not in the position to visit (you being in California, and myself being in South Carolina). Oh well, perhaps one day our paths will cross. Again, I thank you. Keep up the excellent work, and enjoy the journey!

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:59 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 5/16/2000 10:41 am
To: reneé (reneegreco) (15 of 24)
53.15 in reply to 53.13

I agree that Kung-Fu San Soo is a must for law enforcement personnel. I am actually a San Soo instructor, and have been since 1983. Thanks for the advice, and comments on the video.

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Captain America
Site Admin

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 285
Location: near Bismarck, North Dakota

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:46 pm Post subject: WTF!

Dave Lorenson wrote:

Even though I have been involved in San Soo for over 20 some odd years, I have never heard of the Basic 45?

What can I say to that! (other than the title of this post...)

Tsk, tsk.

San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: Kind of weird, huh?

Hey Captain,
Kind of weird, huh? Here is Master Robert Resann's reply to Dave Lorenson.

Robert Resann wrote:

From: Robert @TMI (rresann) 5/12/2000 10:41 pm
To: SifuDave (3 of 24)
53.3 in reply to 53.1

A copy of the Basic 45 can be found at our website. Just click on the web page tab, above. Click on San Soo and go to the "Observation Post," and click on "Basic 45, Frank Woolsey version...," or just click here:

http://www.threatmanagement.com/basic45.htm

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:31 pm Post subject:

And here is Brian Corsi's reply to Dave Lorenson.

Brian Corsi wrote:

From: irondog71 5/12/2000 11:09 pm
To: SifuDave (4 of 24)
53.4 in reply to 53.1

Hey Dave, irondog71 (Brian Corsi) of the Atlanta contingent here. I got my copy of the Basic 45 from the guys at TMI, as well. It is very interesting stuff. Looking forward to meeting you face-to-face in June.

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:10 am Post subject:

And here is Eric Johnson's reply to Dave Lorenson.

Eric Johnson wrote:

From: Esandy 5/17/2000 1:51 pm
To: SifuDave (18 of 24)
53.18 in reply to 53.1

I was wondering why you never heard of the Basic 45? After 20 years in Kung-Fu San Soo, you should be able to teach the lessons without the written instructions; and write down your own copy from memory. We start learning the Basic 45 as white belts, from day 1. If one were to practice them every day, over time, they are cemented in the brain. Most guys at our school don't do that, though. We are all taught on an individual basis. So, everyone goes through the Basic 45 at their own pace, which is nice. Do you teach Fut Ga, Choi Li Ho, Top Ga, and Num Pai?

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: Um, okay.

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 5/17/2000 7:36 pm
To: Esandy (19 of 24)
53.19 in reply to 53.18

Good question, thank you for your interest. Yes, I have been involved in San Soo since 1979. I studied under Master Dennis A. Scheller in Redlands, California; who was a student of the late Master Al Rubin, who was a student of Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo. As for the question on the Basic 45; perhaps, I was not clear in my question, so to clear this up, I will explain.

I left California without ever getting in written form the Basic 45. Master Dennis A. Scheller did not choose to start with these moves at the white belt level, but instead waited to what he felt was an appropriate time. There are plenty of moves that have the elements of this group, without following these specific techniques. I choose in my teaching to work in the Basic 45 along the way. I also choose to provide a written copy for my students to review. Rather than take the time to write the moves down in there entirety from scratch (as I am a very busy person). I wished to see a ready made copy, evaluate it for accuracy, and then convert it for use. I hope this clears up this little issue. Again, thank you for your interest.

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Captain America
Site Admin

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 285
Location: near Bismarck, North Dakota

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:59 am Post subject:

On 5-12-2000 Dave Lorenson wrote

Quote:

Even though I have been involved in San Soo for over 20 some odd years, I have never heard of the Basic 45? So, that is why I am starting this thread. Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of the Basic 45 lessons for my personal notebook?

Then on 5-17-2000 Dave Lorenson wrote

Quote:

I left California without ever getting in written form the Basic 45. Master Dennis A. Scheller did not choose to start with these moves at the white belt level, but instead waited to what he felt was an appropriate time.

Oh, I see... You DID hear of the Basic 45! And when you said that after 20 years in San Soo you "NEVER HEARD OF THE BASIC 45," you were lying!? Or just wanted to get a copy by pleading abject ignorance, (i.e., conning the readers) of the one set of lessons that are foundational in importance in "American" San Soo.

If Scheller waited to teach the Basic 45, as you testify, then you DID know about the Basic 45.

Yep, I think you just wanted to get a copy from someone who had one (e.g. Robert@TMI or anyone else who might be fooled) and by pretending you were incorrigibly ignorant, a con in which you succeeded swimmingly, you thought that a good way to get a set.

Had you paid attention you would have known of the FREE online availability of the Basic 45, and wouldn't have had to plead mind-numbing abject ignorance.

But maybe you really didn't know about them. Naw, you couldn't possible be THAT ignorant AFTER MORE THAN 20 YEARS "studying" San Soo!!! Say it ain't so!

FYI: You can spout a connection to Al Rubin all you like, but you DID NOT LEARN FROM AL RUBIN.

-------------------------------

Oh, wait a moment, I just saw the best part of your 5-17-2000 post. Remember you posted this only 5 days after claiming to KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE Basic 45...

Dave Lorenson wrote:

Quote:

I choose in my teaching to work in the Basic 45 along the way. I also choose to provide a written copy for my students to review. Rather than take the time to write the moves down in there entirety from scratch (as I am a very busy person). I wished to see a ready made copy, evaluate it for accuracy, and then convert it for use.

What the Hell??? You know nothing about the Basic 45 on 5-12-2000 and then on 5-17-2000 you want to see a ready made copy so you can "evaluate it for accuracy, and then convert it for use."

How do you check something for accuracy that you don't know anything about, nor have ever done, nor practiced, nor learned?

And once again, just because Robert@TMI, my buddy and instructor back in the day, learned from Jack Sera, and Jack Sera learned from Jimmy H. Woo... does NOT mean that I learned from anyone other than Robert@TMI. I learned what Robert@TMI taught based on HIS understanding and ability to communicate what he learned from Jack to his students. If I wanted to claim a meaningful tie to Jack or Jimmy, then I would have to have actually studied with those gentlemen. So you really need to stop claiming ties to Al Rubin.

Besides, if you had studied with Al Rubin, you would have learned the Basic 45.

Which you didn't, because you said that AFTER 20 YEARS STUDYING SAN SOO YOU NEVER HEARD OF THE BASIC 45!

Unbelievable........

San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject:

Eric Johnson wrote:

From: Esandy 5/18/2000 6:55 am
To: SifuDave (20 of 24)
53.20 in reply to 53.19

Al Rubin was the best of the best. He actually started under Frank Woolsey, which was one reason why he became so good. I have a video tape of Master Al Rubin and his students in 1983 doing a demonstration at a Citrus Fair in the Inland Empire. So, do you teach Fut Ga, Choi Li Ho, Top Ga, and Num Pai?

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:28 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 5/18/2000 5:08 pm
To: Esandy (21 of 24)
53.21 in reply to 53.20

Pleased to hear from you again! Yes, I agree, Al Rubin was fantastic! I only wish I could have spent more time visiting with him. In answer to your question, I teach Choi Li Fut, which is actually an abbreviated version in name for the entire style (Choi Li Hoi Fut Hung). Jimmy said this himself. Each of the terms you mentioned: Fut Ga, Choi Li Hoi, Top Ga, and Num Pai; are all elements of the teachings that I learned and apply. Apparently the "style" of Num Pai taught by Bill Hulsey is promoting the Ah Soo type techniques, which Dennis A. Scheller taught me. To make it clear, you would probably categorize my instruction as Choi Li Hoi even though this term was not often used in Dennis A. Scheller's studio.

Dennis preferred to use simplified English terms, and we learned to call the teaching San Soo, which actually means the “sparring” or fighting part of the art that is Choi Li Hoi Fut Hung. To learn and teach the art in its completeness is my goal. I feel from your comments an underlying concern against fraudulent instructors, which I share. I am not a Master, though I would love to study to this level. I had to leave just about the time Dennis A. Scheller closed his studio due to low enrollment, and I was never again located near another San Soo studio. I taught privately here and there to a few interested souls to keep myself in practice and share the knowledge shown to me. Only recently have I been able to open a studio -- thus the reason for my posted note, which started this discussion.

Here I am stranded in the Southeastern USA enjoying San Soo, and sharing the wisdom of it with others. If you or any other San Soo artist is in my area (South Carolina), please feel free to visit and work out. I would be honored.

P.S. I was reading through some of the other discussions you have been involved in and from my perspective, you were misunderstood by some of the other readers. I have learned to respect your comments, and those of RRESANN (Robert @ TMI), and welcome your discussion with me. This forum is great, and I look forward to learning more. Oh, I forgot to mention, I would love to see that video tape you mentioned. I have no tapes at all.

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:53 am Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 5/18/2000 5:51 pm
To: irondog71 (22 of 24)
53.22 in reply to 53.4

irondog,
I forgot if I ever replied to you or not -- evidently not. Yes, the Basic 45 are very interesting! I also look forward to meeting you, and the others from your school, in June. I have not worked out with anyone, but my students for years; so a workout with you guys will be welcome and long overdue. I will e-mail you with directions. Thanks a lot for the phone call recently. I enjoyed our discussion. Salute!

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:30 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 5/30/2000 12:42 pm
To: Hakoko (2 of 2)
60.2 in reply to 60.1

Good question! Yes, I train with several different methods in order to bring balance. One of the things that intrigue me is the implementation of the 5 and 5 by the staff at TMI. I have done something for years that Master Dennis A. Scheller taught me, which I believe is very similar; only there was no limit on the attacks exchanged. The situation starts out with two or more opponents and the attacks are continuous -- no delays, or even waiting for the punch, or kick to come in. Sometimes one student will be attacked by three individuals at a time. I also train with several different types of sparring to teach timing and focus. Bags, focus mitts, etc. are useful, as well. I agree with you. The San Soo of Choy Lay Ho Fut Hung is awesome! There is no art like this. Just remember that if you stop growing, you have begun to die.

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 6/7/2000 1:52 pm
To: ALL (1 of 3)
66.1

At a recent meet between some of the guys from the Atlanta school and mine (6-4-2000); which was great for all of us, a question came up that I am hoping some of you first generation guys could answer. We began to discuss the salute, and found that different schools have widely differing opinions on what is correct. Example: Salute senior students and teachers with left foot forward, or right foot forward, and the other way around. I know what Master Dennis A. Scheller taught me, but I would like to know how it was in Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo’s (no disrespect intended -- Lo Sifu Chin Siu Dek) school in El Monte, California. Maybe a couple of you could elaborate on this. Thanks in advance, and salute to all.

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:27 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 7/3/2000 3:58 pm
To: Robert @TMI (rresann) (3 of 3)
75.3 in reply to 75.1

Thank you for another great post. I completely agree! When Dennis A. Scheller taught us, we worked the class lesson until he was happy with it, which was sometimes long after we thought we were happy with it. I really enjoy hearing from someone such as yourself, who appears to think and practice what I believe.

I also do want to emphasize that free styling is important after the lessons are internalized. I have seen much benefit in myself, and in my students, when it is necessary to respond proactively to an unknown attack. We practice an exercise, which I call the Tiger's Cage, where one student, in the middle of a ring of students, responds to single and multiple attacks from those on the outside. This is similar to what the Atlanta school calls the Bull in the Ring. Although our methods are somewhat different, the idea is for the one in the middle to use every move to his advantage, including using opponents against each other. Again, great post. Thank you for your wisdom.

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 7/12/2000 1:23 pm
To: Sean at TMI (SeanScott1) (3 of 23)
78.3 in reply to 78.1

I do teach the Frank Woolsey style, learning from Master Dennis A. Scheller. I do understand what you guys are teaching at TMI, and wish I could visit, and train with you myself. However, I do not agree, as I mentioned in my other post that San Soo is not an art. Yes, it is designed to destroy those who intend to destroy us; but don’t separate the history from the art, and don’t confuse the fluid motion, and mechanics that we all practice, with something ugly. It is part of the art to train in weapons -- because it lends us greater understanding of where the art came from -- why it was used. We train in forms because it helps us learn how to move correctly, and put combinations of strikes together. We train with fellow students because they help us to learn, and we try not to kill them in class, so that they can show up tomorrow, and we can help each other again. Anyway, I have respect for you Sean Scott, and Robert Resann as well. I value your opinions highly, and read with objectivity your posts. I just think that we should respect the history of the art and its origins, as well as train in what are the absolutely most effective aspects of combat, as you guys at TMI appear to be doing quite well. Let me know what you think? Thanks.

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:15 pm Post subject:

Excerpt from an email sent to me from Dave Lorenson...

Dave Lorenson wrote:

Thread on American San Soo
Monday, January 25, 2010 6:59 AM
From: "David Lorenson" lfseminars@yahoo.com
To: "Jon Surritt" sansoosifu@yahoo.com

...You may not be familiar with the FACT that he (Al Rubin) used the term Ah Soo. The Base 45 was also a term that I heard Dennis (Scheller) use at that time, but I wasn't sure that the Basic 45 was the same thing. Once I found out that they were the same, I still wanted a copy to compare it to the Ah Soo's. I had no reason to go into a deep explanation to ESANDY, I didn't know him. ...

Title of the thread started by Si1 Jat6 (Shi1 Zhi2) 師侄 Dave Lorenson on Close Quarters Combat Central Forum...

San Soo (Read-Only Folder) - Base 45
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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:40 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 8/8/2000 7:33 am
To: irondog71 (6 of 27)
101.6 in reply to 101.5

Since we have met, you know that I obviously am not a first generation “Master.” I still have a couple of comments on this subject. The terms “Ah Soo, Fut Ga, Choi Li Ho, Top Ga (or Dap Ga), and Num Pai” are simply that. Meaning they are terms used to classify certain moves into categories, or approaches to combat situations. They are Chinese in origin; therefore, it is my opinion that Jimmy H. Woo used them at one time or another. Bill Hulsey mentions that they came from Jimmy anyway.

Whether you know it or not, when we worked out, you were using some of the moves from some of these “categories,” I recognized them. On another note, Master Dennis A. Scheller decided not to use these terms in his lessons. So, in his book, Dennis A. Scheller outlines the moves according to belt level. Dennis never mentions the terms (in his book) that started this discussion with the exception of Ah Soo (Basic 45). I have no problem with somebody using terms for different categories of moves, but it is better for us to explain them in English to our students, instead of trying to teach Chinese (unless we truly understand Chinese, of course).

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 8/25/2000 7:18 am
To: San Soo Sifu (SanSooSifu) (3 of 21)
108.3 in reply to 108.2

Well spoken! Yes indeed, Master Dennis A. Scheller said the same thing. In fact, he would often work out with techniques from all levels -- why? Because they all work.

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject:

Dave Lorenson wrote:

From: SifuDave 8/30/2000 2:20 pm
To: PHBORISOFF (23 of 50)
73.23 in reply to 73.22

I think I am getting the picture. It is great to hear from you! Sometimes I feel isolated out here on the East coast of the USA. You sound a whole lot like Master Dennis A. Scheller (retired now) -- it makes me feel right at home. Guys like you, Robert Resann, Sean Scott, and San Soo Sifu make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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