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Forms many benefits; however, not multiple opponents

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:49 pm Post subject: Forms many benefits; however, not multiple opponents

Mike Guerrero wrote:

The specific point I want to make is in regards to visualization. When Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo spoke to me about training with the form / sequences, he told me to visualize / imagine I was fighting multiple opponents. He said if I would train my mind; fighter's mindset, to fight multiple imaginary opponents, it would develop my natural instincts, and teach my mind to stay calm and focused under fire.

Robert Resann wrote:

From: Robert @TMI (rresann) 9/17/2000 10:08 am
To: Scott Cargill (ScottCargil) (10 of 34)
120.10 in reply to 120.6

Scott Cargill wrote:

I think one aspect that has not been addressed here is that forms are inherently a form of practice, both in physical movement, as well as the thought processes involved with "Multiple Opponents;" where as an Ah Soo (Basic 45) or Fut Ga technique is strictly a single opponent orientation / thought process.

If we are talking about the "traditional" 26 move form, then NO WAY! You should not physically and mentally program yourself to fight from the MIDDLE, when surrounded by 4-8 opponents (the number being dependent on the angles attacked in any given form -- front, back, sides, and the quarter angles).

Is it possible to be surrounded? Obviously, yes. But both Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo, and common sense dictate that you do not purposely, as a primary tactic or strategy; fight from the middle of a group. I know you had to have been taught to try and "line up" the opponents as much as reasonable, as the preferred way to handle multiple opponents.

Running away is also more feasible when not completely surrounded.

Ah Soo (Basic 45) are not designed for one-on-one situations, only. This is how you fight for your life. To put someone in a submission hold is for one-on-one.

To me, to say Ah Soo (Basic 45) are for one-on-one is like saying shooting a gun is for one-on-one. In the sense of shooting one person at a time, then yes. But if you were armed with a hand gun, and three people were coming at you to do you in, I bet you would try to shoot all three of them.

Using Ah Soo (Basic 45) type combinations and techniques is most definitely NOT (to quote you again) a "strictly a single opponent orientation / thought process."

San Soo Sifu wrote:

From: San Soo Sifu (SanSooSifu) 9/17/2000 2:54 pm
To: Robert @TMI (rresann) (11 of 34)
120.11 in reply to 120.10

Forms would be a very bad idea to imagine multiple attackers. Multiple attackers should be done with other students, in a slow and deliberate manner to ensure safety of the participants. I would suggest add a person per colored belt level; i.e., white belt = one opponent; yellow belt = two opponents; green belt = three opponents; brown belt = four opponents; black belt and degrees of black belt = bull in the ring. But to be serious, if anyone can handle more than two people at once, you are one bad dude! This is providing that they are not complete morons (as Robert Resann would say); and they have grave intentions of causing you serious bodily harm.

I do believe forms are useful and helpful in developing a person's fighting ability in Kung-Fu San Soo. I have already stated my feelings on this topic, and in conjuction with Dynamic Tension, earlier in this thread. But, I will relate what the late Master Al Rubin had to say on the subject, "90% of your training time should be spent on learning the techniques and free-styling; 5% of your training time should be spent on forms, dynamic tension, and stretching; and 5% of your training time should be spent on bag work; i.e., air shields, foam shields, focus gloves, heavy bag, speed bag, double-end bag, etc." The late Master Al Rubin was one of the few Masters that I know of who did not go around saying, "Oh, we don't train on bags, that is counter-productive." When I hear that kind of talk, I just smile and shake my head.

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Arythmnmaker 1
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:25 pm Post subject: Forms are our textbook,

First, let me say, I know for a fact; from personal experiences, all of the techniques from the four categories can, and must, be incorporated to fight effectively against multiple opponents. Second, the forms are sequences that are meant to be used in the exact set for their practice. Forms are our textbook, and the foundation of our combat system. Through forms practice, the student develops his foundation, conditioning, and stepping movements. The forms reinforce the principles of our system, that we learn through our application of the techniques from lessons and freestyle workouts. Forms give you the skills of balance, coordination, and accuracy. However, forms practice must be with intensity of mind, body, and spirit; otherwise, it is not effective for real world fighting.

San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: Forms real purpose...

San Soo Sifu wrote:

From: San Soo Sifu (SanSooSifu) 9/6/2000 1:06 am
To: Robert @TMI (rresann) (2 of 34)
120.2 in reply to 120.1

I have a friend that lives in Whittier, California. He once took Kung-Fu San Soo when he was younger for about six months. He and I have known each other since he was 16 and I was 10, he was best friends with a male cousin of mine, the same age as him. We once got into a philosophical discussion about the value of forms, and their purpose. He was of the opinion that forms were useless and served no real value. I tried to reason with him and explain that forms are good for developing balance, agility, coordination, concentration and breathing. He rebuffed my comments by saying that in today's world there are many types of training equipment and exercise drills to develope those same qualities. I had to really think how to convince him, otherwise; and make him see the value of forms. Then I finally was able to give him an example that made the "light bulb" go on over his thick skull (actually, my family friend is quite intelligent).

I explained that forms, in conjunction with stretching and Dynamic Tension exercises were the only way the traveling / teaching monks could keep their Kung-Fu San Soo skills reasonably sharp, and a good way to stay in shape as they traveled the countryside teaching to the different villages. This explaination sat well with him, and he finally (reluctantly) accepted the value of forms. Well, at least their value in the old days.

On a final note, I will share with you what the late Master Al Rubin used to say about forms, "You can really tell the difference between people who practice forms, and those who do not."

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: Forms are still not meant for fighting multiple opponents.

San Soo Sifu wrote:

Forms are NOT meant to visualize fighting 26 different multiple opponents.

Forms ARE meant to visualize fighting the same (imaginary) opponent from 26 different striking angles.

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Four categories of Chinese martial arts.

I am going to address your post point-by-point; however, I will do it in stages, because you are all over the map with your writing.

Captain Jack Sparrow (Johnny Depp) wrote:

If I might lend a machete to your intellectual thicket.

Perhaps, you might want to read the following web site. It explains that clear & concise writing is preferable to wordiness. Your writing loses its effectiveness when it is too wordy. You can lose the interest of the reader. Also, it can be annoying and insulting to the reader.

http://tls.vu.edu.au/SLS/SLU/FOR_STUDENTS/CALM%20Resources/Resources_Health_Engineering_and_Science/PBL%20Engineering/webbja/Concise_writing.htm

Mike Guerrero wrote:

First, let me say, I know for a fact; from personal experiences, all of the techniques from the four categories can, and must, be incorporated to fight effectively against multiple opponents.

You mention the four categories; however, you do not define them for the reader. Not everyone who reads this forum is as well informed, and martial arts educated, as Mike Guerrero.

So, if you don't mind; I will explain, and expound upon, what you started to write above.

Traditionally, Chinese martial arts fighting techniques are divided into four categories:

踢 Ti = Kicking, kneeing, and the use of the legs.

打 Da = Punching, striking, and the use of the hands & arms.

摔 Shuai (short for Shuai Jiao 摔跤) = Wrestling, throwing, and felling techniques.

拿 Na (short for Chin Na 擒拿) = Seizing, holding, locking, and controlling joints and cavities; pressure point and vital (pass) point techniques.

So, for a Chinese martial art to be considered "complete" it should encompass training in the above listed four categories.

Also, the four categories of Chinese martial arts were designed to work effectively against each other.

Shuai Jiao (throwing & felling) against Ti (kicking) and Da (striking). Chin Na (seizing & locking) against Shuai Jiao (throwing & felling). Ti (kicking) and Da (striking) against Chin Na (seizing & locking).
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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: Forms are still not meant for fighting multiple opponents.

Quote:

Sunday, September 01, 2002; 06:50 p.m.

Old San Soo placed a large emphasis on fighting multiple attackers, simultaneously; and we would workout in trios. We learned how to outflank multiple attackers; and punch, and kick them from behind.

San Soo Sifu wrote:

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Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!

San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: Try following your own advice...

Mike Guerrero wrote:

Friday, August 24, 2007; 05:11 p.m.

All real fighters know that you will fight like you train.

Robert Resann wrote:

From: Robert @TMI (rresann) 9/17/2000 10:08 am
To: Scott Cargill (ScottCargil) (10 of 34)
120.10 in reply to 120.6

If we are talking about the "traditional" 26 move form, then NO WAY! You should not physically and mentally program yourself to fight from the MIDDLE, when surrounded by 4-8 opponents (the number being dependent on the angles attacked in any given form -- front, back, sides, and the quarter angles).

Is it possible to be surrounded? Obviously, yes. But both Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo, and common sense dictate that you do not purposely, as a primary tactic or strategy; fight from the middle of a group. I know you had to have been taught to try and "line up" the opponents as much as reasonable, as the preferred way to handle multiple opponents.

Running away is also more feasible when not completely surrounded.

San Soo Sifu wrote:

Forms are NOT meant to visualize fighting 26 different multiple opponents.

Forms ARE meant to visualize fighting the same (imaginary) opponent from 26 different striking angles.

Forms are NOT a panacea.

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Hit First...Hit Hard...Hit Often...and Finish Him Off!

San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:43 pm Post subject: Forms are still not meant for fighting multiple opponents.

Ted Sias wrote:

Forms in Kung-Fu San Soo play an essential role. Although a good deal of the student's time in the studio will be spent working out, students are expected to know and practice their forms. Forms are NOT generally used to teach fighting skills. They are meant to help the student improve his coordination, breathing, balance, and timing. Both hand and weapons forms are taught. Students will generally learn the hand forms with the class, while working on a weapon's form with a weapon of their choice.

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Falls/5670/morestuf/studio.htm

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San Soo Sifu

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 1113
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA

Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 1:00 am Post subject: A San Soo form is not a fight against imaginary opponents.

Scott Leitch wrote:

A San Soo form is not a fight against imaginary opponents. On the contrary, it is a fight against opponents that are very real. Those opponents are your weaknesses: your inability to concentrate, your lack of balance and poise, your difficulty in coordinating the movements of your limbs, your lack of desire to learn and develop when faced with difficulty.

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